A funny thing happened while a GOP congressional staff weasel was doing his job last week. He actually tried to use European military history to justify one of his little twists. And when I say “funny,” I mean hilarious. This guy was counting on Americans’ total, absolute ignorance of everything that happened in Europe before 1945 beyond the fact that the Nazis were bad people. That’s not a bad bet, most of the time, but this time, this particular weasel just went a lie or two too far.
The weasel in question is named—oh, but that’s the problem right there: What exactly IS this weasel’s name? Well, it used to be “Peter Simonyi.” Nice Hungarian-American name, you’d think. Nothing wrong with that. But this guy, to use the old punchline, had been getting it all dirty, doing what weasels do: Skulking around K Street moving from regulatory agencies like the SEC to bloodsucking financial giants like Goldman Sachs and back to government by landing a job with Darrell Issa, the new GOP hetman of the Congressional unit in charge of corporate crime.
Would You Buy A Hot Car from This Man?
Before Issa took the job, this group was in charge of cracking down on that sort of crime. Officially, at least. Since Issa took over, they’ve dropped the whole front, and made it official that they see themselves as facilitators for the billionaires. I’m not saying Issa’s a lifelong hood who graduated from Grand Theft Auto to locksmithing, a totally classic crime bio, then hit it big and became a rightwing thug on a whole new level. I’m not saying he even stole his Army buddy’s car, then ditched it on the freeway when he felt the heat. But then I’m not not saying it either.
Naturally, a sleaze like Issa wanted a guy like Peter Simonyi on his new crime-helping team in Congress. And little Peter wanted to be a part, a small, humble, part, of that great big racket, by helping Issa write bloodsucker-friendly legislation.
There was just one problem: It didn’t look squeaky-clean for the same Peter Simonyi who used to turn the thumbscrews for Goldman Sachs to be joining the Congressional staff who were supposed to be fighting corporate cartels.
But like Shakespeare or somebody said, what’s in a name? Money, Peter figured, easy money—but only if he came up with a new one that he hadn’t messed up yet. So just like that, Peter Simonyi officially changed his name to “Peter Haller.” But it was his tear-jerker of an explanation that really had me in the aisles.
See, this reporter Lee Fang at ThinkProgress tracked down Simonyi/Haller’s bio—the whole crawl of shame between lobbyists, congress and bloodsucking finance companies—and sweated him about why he needed an alias. And who was more entitled to ask than a guy with a standout name like “Lee Fang,” anyway? Stonewall Jackson would’ve been proud to have that for a nickname. I bet there’s a neo-Confederate bio of Jackson out with a name like that: “Stonewall Jackson: Lee’s Fang.”
Here’s what Simonyi/Haller said when they pressed him on the name change:
“My mother, whose maiden name is Theodora Maria Theresia haller-koi gr Haller (in the U.S., Dora Haller), married Imre Gabor Simonyi and took his name. Her father Alfred haller-koi gr Haller was killed in Budapest in 1944 by fascists as he attempted to prevent children from being conscripted into the military. Prior to his return to Hungary in 1944, he served under Regent Miklos Horthy, as a Hungarian diplomat stationed in England supporting the British in opposition to Germany. His last request was that if Theodora marries, her husband and children would carry on the Haller name.”
There are a lot of funny bits in that little one-paragraph melodrama Peter wrote, but the funniest of all is this line: “…He served under Regent Miklos Horthy, as a Hungarian diplomat stationed in England supporting the British in opposition to Germany.” That is what is technically called a flat-out lie. One thing you can tell about Peter from this story: He thinks Americans don’t know a thing about European history. And he’s probably right, since a lot of the reader comments to this big lie called it “a touching family story.” Whoo-ee! It’s a story, all right. About as accurate as Rambo’s version of Nam.
Miklos Horthy was “Regent” of Hungary from 1919 to 1944. If he was “supporting the British,” it was a well-kept secret. If only Hitler had known that about his pal Miklos, he might not have posed with him in quite as many photo ops, where you can see the Fuhrer and the Regent shaking hands, strolling together, taking a little ride in a convertible together, just generally lovin’ up a storm, as Jerry Lee would say.
Horthy & Hitler: The 2H Love Tour
H&H: Secret “Pro-British” Handshake
I don’t even know where Peter came up with that “pro-British” lie of his. The British weren’t even a factor in that messed-up, landlocked multi-ethnic gangfight. South-Central Europe between the wars—well, it’s a lot like South-Central LA back in the day, except a whole lot bloodier and more confusing. Basically it’s pretty much the way Eastwood describes his killer past in Unforgiven: Nobody remembers much of it, they were drunk most of the time–the main ingredient for a war in those parts is slivovitz, or anything else if you can’t get that, including hair oil and wood alcohol—and they shot a lot of people. And hanged a lot of people. And raped a lot of people. Hungarians, Germans, Slovaks, Rumanians, Croats, Serbs, Ukranians, with the Jews and Gypsies hiding in the bushes trying to sell a little booze and not get lynched—Did I leave anybody out? If so, they’re lucky, because nobody was a hero in that mess. Primitive warfare with superb German or Czech weapons; you can imagine how that went. Killing everyone in the village before you leave—standard practice. Avoiding combat, torturing civilians until they tell you where their last side of bacon is—a day at the office. Raping every female before you bayonet them and go—part of the job. .
When the totally worthless, sleaze-ridden Austro-Hungarian Empire collapsed after Germany surrendered, some ethnic gangs rose in the rankings and others sank. The Hungarians lost out big, because as the second-meanest and biggest gang in the Empire (after the Germans), they’d had a sort of little-brother status that allowed them to beat up all the other ethnics lower than them. By local standards, believe me, that was a good deal.
But their big brothers, the Germans, lost out, so they lost too. In 1920, thanks to the Treaty of Trianon, which was the B-League version of the Treaty of Versailles that did such a good job of pacifying Europe, Hungary had lost three-quarters of its old territory and about two-thirds of its population. What was left was a core area, a Hungarians-only district—and that’s what’s now “Hungary” on the map.
You’d think that’d be fine, since those tribes couldn’t live with each other. Why not split up? Well, remember the Balkans in the 1990s. A bunch of Hungarians got left behind in the parts that were grabbed by all the other ethnic gangs, and that drove the homeland Hungarians crazy. Crazier than before, I mean, because the truth about Europe before 1945, the one key truth nobody wants to hear, is that they were all, and I mean all, from London to Moscow, bloodthirsty creeps, totally out of their minds. The only difference is that they weren’t all as good at war, or not at the same time anyway, and the ones who were more in the mood grabbed what they could, when they could.
The Goldman Sachs-turned-Darrell-Issa-staffer Peter Simonyi/Haller’s hero, Miklos Horthy, was a classic specimen of South-Central European strongman between the wars. A fascist, absolutely. Not the worst of them, but a fascist all the way, in that half-comedy way the smaller European dictators had, from Mussolini on down. His title was a punchline in itself: “Admiral Miklos Horthy.” Admiral? Take another look at Hungary on the map; Admiral of what? Turns out Horthy had been an Admiral in the Austro-Hungarian navy, which was another punchline in itself.
“Admiral? Admiral of What, the Zoo Ducks?”
Nobody thought it was funny, a landlocked country with an admiral for a dictator. Nobody thought it was funny that Horthy took power in the name of the official King of Hungary, but when the King tried to come back and take the throne, Horthy, his “Regent,” told him to get lost. Twice. I’m telling you, Europe, before it got gelded in 1945, was dead serious, and blood-crazy.
Horthy came to power after the commies tried, and failed, to restore Hungary’s glory with the “Hungarian Socialist Republic.” The Republic, which should’ve had “Short-Lived” as part of its official name, started in 1919 woofing about workers’ rights, but in a few months Kun was drafting every man under 60 to go fight the Rumanians. They marched east and got slaughtered.
So much for Communism. It was time to go back to what South-Central homies knew best: A strongman who had a fancy uniform and would snuggle up to the Germans. That was how they thought, and there was a kind of nasty South-Central logic to it. After all, it came down to the Germans or the Russians, and when you had that choice, most people, even the Jews, generally went with the Germans. The Russians just played too rough. At least the Germans tended to go easier on their allies; the Russians, then and now, played it more down the line, killing just as many of their friends as their enemies. Something about low self-esteem, I don’t know.
And from 1933 on, “The Germans” meant “The Nazis.” Hitler had pulled Germany out of starvation, or that’s how the homies in South-Central saw it. And if you’re really ignorant enough to think that anybody in Europe, circa 1935, actually objected to the Nazis’ Jew-baiting, race-bragging stuff…well, you must be one of those pig-ignorant Americans little Peter is counting on.
Besides, kissing up to Hitler paid off, at first. Hungary got land back from all the other South-Central gangs, thanks to the Wehrmacht backing. And Horthy was so happy he jumped at every photo-op Hitler offered him.
When the war finally came, Horthy was all for it. Hungarian troops fought with the Wehrmacht all through South-Central, and even contributed a huge contingent to the Axis troops on the Don Front in Russia (where they got a rep for looting and cowardice that made even the Italians look down on them).
Then came Stalingrad and Europe suddenly got a conscience. As in, “Whoa, the Germans might actually lose!” Yes, children, that was the moment when the Great European Moral Awakening took place: When they realized that they were going to be explaining all those Hitler portraits on the wall to a Soviet Army political officer someday soon.
Horthy woke up a little later than most of them. Nobody ever said the old landlocked Admiral was a very smart fella. It wasn’t until 1944, when the Soviets had been bleeding the Wehrmacht for years, that Hungary tried to withdraw. And even then, they failed: The Nazis, with the worst intelligence system of any modern power, managed to find out that Horthy planned to ditch them, captured him and put a reliably insane Hungarian fascist in his place.
And if I remember correctly, Peter, it was in 1944 that your brave, “anti-fascist” ancestor with that aristocratic German name came back to Hungary, right? Weird timing, huh? A Horthy supporter who was “killed by fascists” in ’44—let’s translate that into something that makes sense. Grandpa Simonyi-Haller was a Horthy loyalist, you mean, an ordinary garden-variety nationalist-fascist Hungarian/German upper-class diplomat whose backer, Horthy, had tried to ditch his Nazi sponsors and failed. So what you mean, Peter m’boy, is that your fascist granddad was killed by OTHER fascists—and with a name like Grandpa had, it was pure German-on-German violence we’re talking about here—because his “moderate fascist” boss Horthy had double-crossed the German Army that he’d been cheering for as long as it helped him steal more land from the other gangs in South Central.
You’re right, Peter. It’s a heartwarming family story you’ve got there. You should coach your kids so they can tell it at those elementary-school “My Family’s Ethnic History” days. Why not? People who’ll vote for Darrell Issa will swallow anything.
There’s another happy ending for the other hero of the story, Dear Old “pro-British” Admiral Horthy, so beloved by the entire Simonyi, I mean Haller, family. Those squeamish Nazis didn’t do the sensible thing and stand this worthless traitor up against the nearest wall. In fact, Horthy must’ve talked fast in Nazi custody, because the old swine survived to snitch on his ex, Adolf, at the Nuremburg Trials. So you see, the story has a happy ending: The Germans, the only fascists who actually had courage to match their crazy, were the official bad guys and Admiral Horthy was an “anti-fascist” hero whose shining image is clean enough to make even a sleaze like Peter Simonyi-Haller look good enough to be a congressional GOP staffer.
You see where I’m going here. Where the whole miserable human race is going: Downhill fast. From brave and bloodthirsty to cowardly thieves.
You can see the bad old days, though—the much-better bad old days, fresh off the Steppe–if you look at Simonyi/Haller’s picture. See those downturned eyes? Look at a painting of Genghis himself and you’ll see the same eyes, turned down like a compound bow.
Genghis Khan-Haller-Simonyi
Those are steppe eyes, right out of the Central Asian grasslands into the plains of Pannonia.
You know what the Europeans called war in those days? “The movements of the peoples.” They were a lot more honest in those days, in more ways than one.
Yes, and eventually some of the peoples moved all the way to DC, where they got busy fooling some of the people all of the time, looting without even being good warriors, with car thieves for leaders and little weasels like Peter writing crooked legislation. If you ask me, there was far more honor in being a Simonyi, descendant of the mounted archers who fought their way into the best grasslands in Europe and fought the Mongols almost to a draw.
Would you like to know more? Gary Brecher is the author of the War Nerd. Send your comments to gary dot brecher at gmail dot com. Read Gary Brecher’s first ever War Nerd column by clicking here.
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Read more: adolph hitler, darrell issa, fascism, Goldman Sachs, hungary, miklos horthy, Gary Brecher, The War Nerd
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97 Comments
Add your own1. Kirby | August 19th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
If Gary Brecher wrote history books, I’d buy them in a heartbeat.
2. Michal | August 19th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
That was a pretty good article, you had me grinning with amusement throughout. I hope mr. Haller will eventually release some sort of extended biography of this noteworthy ancestor. Just think of all the historical moments he’s experienced and probably had to explain to the British: he’s probably went through the partition of Czechoslovakia (whose territorial integrity was guaranteed by the UK), the war against Slovakia, the occupation of Vojvodina…not to mention all the other stuff, of course.
3. jonnym | August 19th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
you really need to write another book, man.
4. Quarial | August 19th, 2011 at 4:51 pm
Only a slight typo.
It is Pannonia palins, not Pavonia plains.
Besides that this is good shit!
5. Dirty Harry | August 19th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
A War Nerd article about Hungarian history, yay!
But wait a second. It says the dead grandpa story is a lie. I did a short search, on the Hungarian intertubes. Not much turned up about him, but the sources agree that he was shot dead by an Arrow Cross Party activist. Those were your typical “armed scum” type militia who are brave against civilians, but turn their tail on the sight of a uniform. They served not the traitor Horthy (he wanted to surrender!), but that “reliably insane Hungarian fascist”, and guess what, they were “reliably insane” too. Shooting jews (or anyone who dared to talk back, like grandpa Haller) into the Danube was their main duty after their insane leader rose to power. With this little background, let’s see the books.
Hungarian Biographical Lexicon here: http://mek.niif.hu/00300/00355/html/ABC05727/05869.htm
says about Haller Alfréd:
“Bp. ostroma alatt a nyilasok ölték meg.” = “Was killed by Arrow Cross Party members during the siege of Budapest.”
Another source, István Nemeskürty in “The history of Hungarian Literature”
http://mek.oszk.hu/08600/08687/html/02.htm#88
says:
“Haller Alfréd grófot, az 1600-as évek óta folyamatosan írogató főnemesi család sarját regényének megjelenése után (Muskátli, 1944) az utcán lőtte agyon egy nyilas suhanc.”
=
“Earl Alfred Haller, offset of a noble family that was writing since the 1600’s, was shot dead on the street by an Arrow Cross Party stripling just after his novel (Pelargonium, 1944) was out.”
About what did he do in London or why did he went back home, I found nothing (he could be part of Horthy’s plan to surrender to the anglos, in case they show up at the door), but his death could have happened just as Simonyi says.
I would keep going on with this apologia for the Goldman Sachs lobbyist guy but thankfully the Almighty eXiled Inquisitor has decided to intervene on my behalf and correct my sockpuppet ways.
6. Tall Saul | August 19th, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Just more evidence that Hungarians run the world. They are freaking everywhere. Everything Soros, Simonyi (the microsoft guy and this chump too) do is part of a larger attempt to destroy paper currency and replace it with one based on paprika.
7. bulfinch | August 20th, 2011 at 1:57 am
Gary…thanks for this. You’re a talented researcher with a great and honest writing style.
8. gray | August 20th, 2011 at 3:14 am
The Treaty of Versailles was only as a bad as the USA and the British could make it. When they would’t enforce it, it was useless.
Trianon was a bad for the Hungarians, but Austria came out pretty with Saint Germain.
Pretty good post. Hah what kind of government would put Issa in charge of investigating corporate crime ?
9. Zog | August 20th, 2011 at 4:53 am
“there was far more honor in being a Simonyi, descendant of the mounted archers who fought their way into the best grasslands in Europe and fought the Mongols almost to a draw.”
*Tear forms in corner of eye”
Gary, you are like Beevor, Tolkien and Chomsky all rolled into one.
10. g | August 20th, 2011 at 7:33 am
you will be seated at the right hand of the father, brecher.
11. nerdie war | August 20th, 2011 at 7:53 am
Your post is already cited on hungarian sites:)
In my opinion, describing what a messed up region Central/Eastern Europe was at that time and what sort of people they had as leaders doesn’t say much about the Grandpa. From what we know, he could have been a decent person – of course, not as decent as Gary, but okay for an upper class Hungarian in a fascist-wannabe country.
The bleeding heart family story as the background for changing to Haller – well, that’s priceless though.
12. PJ | August 20th, 2011 at 9:39 am
Your facts are a little off, Gary (f.e. it was Horthy’s son, Miklós Jr. who was kidnapped by Otto Skorzeny – his name may ring a bell) and you made several shortcuts like skipping on this fact of importance: Horthy and the government of PM Kállay did talk to the British from the start of 1943 and on 09 September that year they signed a secret agreement that promised Hungarian capitulation to any english-speaking force entering the country. They really weren’t very keen about Uncle Joe Stalin, you see.
Nevertheless.
I suppose the above and other stuff really doesn’t matter now as the article is about Haller-Simonyi and not the factual history but the statesmen of Hungary being sorry pricks part is true.
Let me give you an old, very old Hungarian joke about us joining the WWII.
”
The Hungarian declararation of war with the USA happened like this: the Hungarian ambassador went to see the U.S. Secretary of State, presenting him the declaration document. The Secretary asked:
– Let me ask you a question as it’s a little hazy. What is your country’s form of government?
– It’s a kingdom.
– And who is your king?
– We don’t have king, just a governor.
– Who is this governor?
– Admiral Miklós Horthy.
– So you have a sea?
– No, we’re a landlocked country.
– I see. Do you have any territorial claim against the USA?
– No, we don’t have any.
– But do you have any territorial claim?
– Yes. Against Austria, Czechslovakia, Romania…
– So you declare war on them too?
– No, they are our allies.
“
13. goat_farmers_of_the_CIA | August 20th, 2011 at 10:10 am
From Dirty Harry: “I would keep going on with this apologia for the Goldman Sachs lobbyist guy but thankfully the Almighty eXiled Inquisitor has decided to intervene on my behalf and correct my sockpuppet ways.”
In fact the Arrow Cross Fascist swine is back in power in Hungary (admittedly thanks to the phony post-Commies cynical lying & thieving). I have read plenty about their young PR flacks’ mastery of English and the art of disinformation. I wouldn’t be so surprised if one of them tried to whitewash that tinpot goon Horthy, whose bio is typical of the Nazis who had their sins cleansed by the US if found to be of some value (eg.: von Braun and 3/4’s of the future BDR government).
I am pretty sure this Haller bastard would have happily joined Klaus Barbie or some other goon helping bloody tinpot dictators in Chile, Argentina,etc. keep the Reds at bay.
14. Duarte Guerreiro | August 20th, 2011 at 11:42 am
Even Gary is covering current political events (sort of). The Exiled is building up to something good, methinks.
15. Alex | August 20th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Nice to know this blogging thing still goes strong in that tent shelter of yours, my jobless, home-evicted and family-less Pindos friend.
16. niccolo and donkey | August 20th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
What was so bad about the pro-Axis Magyars? They were the good guys.
17. boson | August 20th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
actually he doesn’t look like a typical Hungarian at all to me, downturned eyes like his are quite rare in the country.
18. Mudhead | August 20th, 2011 at 6:50 pm
Almost fought the Mongols to a draw? I thought the Mongols annihilated the Hungarians at the Battle of Mohi.
Still, excellent piece WN. One of your very best.
19. Tall Saul | August 20th, 2011 at 10:24 pm
They did. But they were the first Euros to figure out the Mongols. They defeated them in the first few battles they had and then overconfidence did them in.
Since this article is drawing nitpickers, i might as well point out that the Commie Hunkies at least annihilated the vaunted Czechoslovaks before they took on the Romanians. How about that for an article? Hungarian Commies > Russian Commies when it comes to the Czech Legions.
One common thread through history is that Hungarians always seem to punch above their weight, even if they do get annihilated in the end. You don’t see any Romanians, Czechs, Slovenes or Slovaks causing mischief on an international scale, do you? They are a nation of Cobra Commanders. And they are legion.
20. helplesscase | August 21st, 2011 at 1:10 am
Take heart, WN. The oil will run out and we’ll all fucking die.
@12: Great joke, man.
21. Shiro | August 21st, 2011 at 3:12 am
Brilliant stuff, Gary. All the best on your job search. And take heart: the Japanese are getting their asses kicked into another industrial revolution by the high YEN and the fallout from building so many nukes near the sea and seismic zones.
22. Magyar | August 21st, 2011 at 6:32 am
As a Hungarian and a WWII / 20th geek I can say that this article captures well the fucked up political situation of the era.
Suprisingly good, the tiny mistakes are forgivable, given that it was written by a foreigner, and the conclusion is also right: serving as a high-ranking politician in the Horthy regime in the early part of the war is forgivable, Hungary had good reasons to join the Axis (and no choice), no one saw how the war will end and all the atrocities, but trying to put a twist on it showing grandpa as some sort of Allied supporter is laughable.
Grandpa wasn’t a hero by hollywood standards, Simonyi tries to make him into one, but he eventually comes of as Rudolf Hess.
23. Punjabi From Karachi | August 21st, 2011 at 6:54 am
The War Nerd once mentioned the Romanian Iron Guard as seriously nasty stuff, possibly even more than the Nazis. I was expecting this blog post to be an expansion on that, rather than an elucidation of some Fascist loyalists grandson. It does seem to serve the Exile’s political purpose, so eh, whatever.
But coming back to the Iron Guard, if they did atorcities that would make the Nazis blush, (as the War Nerd insinuated) then maybe he could elucidate on them a bit, their history, the quality of their fighting on the Eastern Front etc.
Wonder what the fascist descendants of Vlad the Impaler did; crucify Jews? The old rip foetuses from pregnant women’s standby? Wrap in a rug and trample or roast?
Am interested to know what they did that even Gary Brecher got squeamish mentioning them.
Also, an assessment of Pakistan’s actions in the War on Terror, especially the major ones, like Swat, South Waziristan, these would be appreciated.
24. Justin Liu | August 21st, 2011 at 7:38 am
Write a book, I’ll buy it.
25. Adam | August 21st, 2011 at 8:22 am
@23
if youre looking for some good atrocity porn, look no further than the japanese manchurian army’s push through china in the 30s and 40s.
26. swr | August 21st, 2011 at 10:32 am
The War Nerd once mentioned the Romanian Iron Guard as seriously nasty stuff, possibly even more than the Nazis. I was expecting this blog post to be an expansion on that
I’d Google “Hiroshima” and “Nagasaki.”
For some reason though, incinerating a few hundred thousand people from the air never seems quite as “atrocious” as bayonetting a few on the ground.
27. DarthFurious | August 21st, 2011 at 10:44 am
I’m afraid I have to object to something here:
“And if you’re really ignorant enough to think that anybody in Europe, circa 1935, actually objected to the Nazis’ Jew-baiting, race-bragging stuff…well, you must be one of those pig-ignorant Americans little Peter is counting on.”
The appropriate term is pigSHIT-ignorant Americans. Come on Gary, don’t start going all PC on us.
28. Carlo Colombo | August 21st, 2011 at 1:05 pm
I did just buy his book.
29. beowulf | August 21st, 2011 at 2:30 pm
“you will be seated at the right hand of the father, brecher.”
Ha ha, awesome. From now on that’s my go-to compliment for anyone worthy of praise.
30. Dejo | August 21st, 2011 at 4:08 pm
What’s your take on Oskar Dirlewanger?
31. Punjabi From Karachi | August 21st, 2011 at 9:05 pm
Adam thanks, I kinda have a feeling you`re right about the Japanese push through China being chockfull of interesting madness. As for calling it atrocity porn, well, I`m not really a fan of that stuff, it`s just when Brecher says that something is too much for him, then that just piques my curiosity.
But coming back to China during the 1930`s I kind of am hesitant to go back there, because I used to try and make sense of that chaos as a kid and it was damn hard with all the warlords China had. It would feel like going back to being a kid, reading Tintin and the Blue Lotus, etc. But hey, whatev`s, I do have a couple of theories. 1) That since it`s called the Second World War, maybe it should be listed as beginning from the Japanes invasion of China, in what, 1931? 1933? The Blue Lotus actually brings home the sadness of the chaos, and I don’t even have to download a copy of the book, just remember Tintin rescuing Chang from drowning whilst no one looked on, and it’s like the chaos of mid-nineties Afghanistan writ large on China. So maybe we can say that World War II began with the Japanese invasion of China or Manchuria in 1931. If this is a World War, we can say that. And it became a true World War with the insanity of Hitler in Europe.
2) The Warlord based chaos of China during the 1920s and 1930s has reminded me of the chaos of Afghanistan during the 1990’s. That makes me feel that maybe it is the presence of a large unabandoned, chaotic space that leads to the world getting sucked into a war, especially when there are neo-con type hawks around. China was the Warlordism based Afghanistan of the 1930s.
OK, that’s the sideline into dear old China.
SWR, nice attempt at being cute, but I’ve already watched Barefoot Gen back in March. I think this was when the War Nerd was doing his marathon daily war movie thing. I wish we could have more movies on the Eastern Front in English, because they would be Lord of the Rings + Lord of War + Harry Potter + Kill Bill multiplied by Inglourious Basterds awesome.
Any way, in relation to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, here is the money shot scene, in English, from Barefoot Gen, of you-know-what-hell-what happening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oreRba3xyjU
And now returning to the Iron Guard.
So I went searching myself for stuff on them, and just skimming through, I saw they hung people from meat hooks, cut their bellies and laced their intestines around the necks of the hanging victims.
That is pretty creative. It’s also grotesque, cruel, barbaric and disgusting, but what can we say? I would like to leave it up to the unique voice of the War Nerd to expoound on the Iron Guard further.
32. old.frt | August 21st, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Bingo!
33. darthfader | August 22nd, 2011 at 12:12 am
Carsten’s The Rise of Fascism is an indispensable book on the topic of interwar Hungary and all the other European dictatorships of the time.
It’s a very good read. It’s also the book I tell people to read when they tell me Hitler was a socialist.
34. gc | August 22nd, 2011 at 12:14 am
@31
“So I went searching myself for stuff on them, and just skimming through, I saw they hung people from meat hooks, cut their bellies and laced their intestines around the necks of the hanging victims.”
Those Romanians seem to have a certain flair for executions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_III_the_Impaler#Methods_of_execution
35. El Hombre Malo | August 22nd, 2011 at 3:36 am
“For some reason though, incinerating a few hundred thousand people from the air never seems quite as “atrocious” as bayonetting a few on the ground.”
It’s not the body count, it’s the mindset necesary. Bombing is a detatched way of killing, while bayonetting requires a personal involvement, moreso if it is not done in the context of combat.
Lot’s of people love a roasted suckling pig but not so many are capable of slaughtering one.
36. paytheprice | August 22nd, 2011 at 9:52 am
Now imagine these people organizing a violent protest just 9 years after they’ve done all these horrible things. What was the Soviet Union to do if not suppress violence of very violent people? So stop presenting 1956 in Hungary as USSR’s evildoing. These folks were not peaceful innocent villagers under an evil empire’s foot. They were Nazi criminals punished for their crimes and they were lucky to be given a second chance.
And that goes to almost all Eastern European countries – if you did NOT collaborate with the Nazi, the Soviets would not need to put you under their control. You lost your freedom in 1940s because of your own criminal actions during WWII.
You are forgetting that USSR made a deal with all those Eastern block countries. USSR needed a buffer to separate itself from hostile Western countries, you needed to escape the punishment for your crimes. So the agreement was made – you build socialism with us and we forgive you for your horrific crimes. That deal basically allowed Eastern Europeans to think of yourself as innocent lambs unfairly abused by big Russian bear. But once you broke the deal, you might as well find out who you really were and how much you deserved everything that happened to you.
Also think of what you, Eastern Europeans, do right now collaborating against Russia with her geopolitical rivals. Remember that if your current actions lead to deaths of Russians, justice will find you.
37. Censuslouie | August 22nd, 2011 at 11:13 am
Mr. #36, the country of Poland would like to have a word with you.
38. Jon | August 22nd, 2011 at 11:57 am
Do you know what I as hungarian find strange? That people tend to think that history was started in 1939. But nobody asks the other side.
-Bad hungarians treated their subordinates like sh*t? The first hungarian government in 1867 (after 1848) declared AUTONOMY for all minorities. And they were the only one who let jews settle in their country from east.
-If minorities were suffering in Hungary why didn’t they leave? They could have returned to the Turkish empire. It was not their land, not their home.
If I have a house and I give the flats to rent to slovaks, rumans etc, it doesn’t mean I’m giving the flats to them.
-Bad hungarians killed jews? Yes. It is not mandatory to love jews. Especially those who betrayed Hungary by seizing power as communists in 1920.
Assisting the enemy with weapons is called betrayal.
Bela (Kohn) Kun
Matyas (Rosenfeld) Rakosi
Bela Linder
Vilmos Loewi
40 comissars, 30 of the jews.
And those jews returned in 1945. Should I love them and feel guilty trying to kill them? No.
I do not expect anyone to know what happened here. I do not expect anyone to do research or even try to see these from the other side.
39. Mr. Turul | August 22nd, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Dear War Nerd,
As a Hungarian fan of yours, I got excited seeing a War Nerd article on Hungarian history. While reading, first I started frowning, then started bunching my fists, then was ready to hit the monitor with a ballhammer.
Talking about ignorant Americans… The article repeats only Entente Cordiale and Allied propaganda, the Marxist interpretation of Hungarian history, the typical “Horthy-fascism” chliche, and anti-Hungarian stereotypes. I expected more from you, Gary Brecher.
1. Lets start with the obvious: picture number 4, titled:
“H&H: Secret “Pro-British” Handshake”
well, on that picture, the man Hitler is shaking hands with, is definitely NOT Horthy Miklós.
2. Kun (Cohen) Béla and his Bolshevik regime, who started up class war and red terror in 1919, had an evident Jewish character. The Directorium of Kun had only one ethnic Hungarian member, so someone could underwrite death sentences during Sabbath. Their mass-murdering ways opened up violent anti-semitic feelings previously non-existent in Hungary, and this explains the Hungarians’ attitude towards Jews during 1944 and the Holocaust. And those Commie Jews could not care less about restoring Hungarian glory: the Hungarian territories conquered back from the Czechs they gave to the Slovaks as their very own Sovietrepublic.
3. Thanks to Hitler, Hungary conquered back some of her territories. Horthy would gladly have received those territories back from the hands of the Allies-too bad they always sticked to their decision of evil Trianon Treaty of 1920. It was the only choice and the only good choice for Hungary to throw in our lot with the Nazis to take back our 1000 years old lands and peoples, rightfully belonging to us. Still, Horthy was pro-British: the Kállay-double step policy was about this, and I would have expected you noting this instead of ignorantly missing it…
4. Hungarian looting and cowardice at the River Don Front? Gary, I am ready to burn your vineyard for this. My grandfather fought at the Don in the brave anti-bolshevist Crusade. Two hundred thousand Hungarian soldiers died of the 2nd Hungarian Army at the hands of the Soviet hordes, and those Soviets were really raping and looting all their way to Berlin.
4. Stealing land from other gangs??? What the fuck you are on about, man? Those lands in question are part of the 1000 years old Hungarian Kingdom, with millions of ethnic Hungarians living there, oppressed. We liberated our brothers and sisters and our occupied country, and I hope to God the day will come again when we will repeat this feat. Stealing land??? I am ready to really burn your vineyard, or to burn it down a second time!
Well, fuck it! Hungary and the Hungarians are alone in the world.
But I did not expect an anti-Hungarian article from War Nerd!
40. Oscar Zoroaster | August 22nd, 2011 at 12:59 pm
“The Nazis, with the worst intelligence system of any modern power”
I’ve never heard this before. War Nerd you need to elucidate. A power ranking of the intelligence services of the day would be nice.
Also a request for an assessment of Mongol intelligence gathering just because I know you love writing about them
41. Magyar | August 22nd, 2011 at 1:37 pm
#36: poor Austrians didn’t make this deal after WWII, they still fighting their conscience
Take less crocodile, you’ll need your strength if you have world power ambitions.
42. AR | August 22nd, 2011 at 1:43 pm
How about John Shallikashvilli’s father in the SS?:
“In 1939, he fought against the German invasion of Poland. After the Polish defeat, Dimitri was demobilized. In 1941, he enlisted in the Georgian Legion, a force of ethnic Georgians recruited by Germany to fight against the Soviet Union.[5] The unit was later incorporated into the SS-Waffengruppe Georgien[6] and transferred to Normandy. Dimitri surrendered to British forces and was a prisoner of war until after the war.”
43. Hannibal | August 22nd, 2011 at 3:33 pm
@40
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization#Intelligence_and_Planning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization#Psychological_warfare_and_deception
There’s your analysis you lazy bum.
44. Flaser | August 22nd, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Another Hungarian here: ignore Mr. Turul and his kind, as his chosen nick indicates he’s part of the radical right, i.e. “it’s the JEW’s fault!”
About Hiroshima & Nagasaki: I can’t believe you people still spout those two. Were they terrible? Oh, yes… though what Curtis Le May already subjected the country to was a lot worse. Incendiary bombing is not pretty.
…though in some ways the Japanese “had it coming” after all the crap they pulled in Manchuria.
The irony of situation is that the USA bombed them for an entirely different reason, that is their own imperial agenda clashed with that of Japan. Humanitarianism is a framing device to sell the deal to subsequent generations.
45. Oscar Zoroaster | August 22nd, 2011 at 8:07 pm
#43 if I wanted a wiki I’d go there. Ney, I want the War Nerd treatment. The Mongols seem to bring a warmth in his heart. Like he’s sacking Samarkand or harvesting the Steppe for Slaves
46. Karl Farts | August 22nd, 2011 at 9:47 pm
Thank you war nerd, thank you commenters. You are the last opiate available to me.
47. Jon | August 23rd, 2011 at 1:16 am
Mr Flaser. You are no hungarian. You are from the lot of Matyas Rosenfeld the ones with Kol Nidre. You are no hungarian. So do not talk like you were one!
48. Magyar | August 23rd, 2011 at 1:40 am
While Mr. Turul sheds some light on the roots of the interwar anti-semitism (take his facts with a grainof salt though), it still wouldn’t sell the guy in current US politics.
Interesting thought: had Horthy not seek to get a deal with the Allied behind Hitler’s back, more Hungarian jews would have survived the war. While Hungary was an outspokenly anti-semitic power (and somewhat a pioneer on that field), jews where relatively unharmed. They did found themselves in the same unfortunate bunch as socialists and other distrusted people, doing unarmed military service in brutal conditions, but there wasn’t a planned extermination, there weren’t coward low-lifes wearing the party uniform, executing people on the streets at random.
That began after the German coup, and by the Arrow Party, the predecessor of which was actually banned by Horthy in 1937.
It’s some complicated, controversial period that still has relevance in Hungarian politics. I would say the Garys article is right enough not to be called ignorant, any more detail would only put people off from reading it, and could never please a tiny but vocal minority.
49. Ilona | August 23rd, 2011 at 7:12 am
“Hungarians, Germans, Slovaks, Rumanians, Croats, Serbs, Ukranians, with the Jews and Gypsies hiding in the bushes trying to sell a little booze and not get lynched—Did I leave anybody out?”
You should have mentioned that in nearly every country on your list there were at least three main belligerent sides: Nationalists, Communists and Nazis. And Germans were… Well, Germans were just Germans. ALL fighting each other!
A great bloody mess. A lot of bootlegging rivalry going on.
50. F | August 23rd, 2011 at 8:42 am
#36
No. Soviets put us under their control, because we were weak, and could not stop the Red Army (and were on the wrong side of the “line”, unlike Austria for example).
In war it is a soldier’s duty to kill the enemy or die trying and if victorious, it is his right to take whatever possession he may find in the occupied territory, be it furniture, women or whatever you can imagine. This is what the Red Army did, and this is what his enemies did.
In modern war and politics, there is no such thing as “justice”. I could claim, that killing and maiming russian soldiers who fought in Afghanistan and Chechnya and bombing civils in Moscow by Chechen was “justise”, but as I pointed out, there is no such thing.
51. Paul | August 23rd, 2011 at 9:56 am
Dear WN,
I kicked in some bucks.
Excellant articles.
Buy a double-double; keep writing.
52. Klaus | August 23rd, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Gary, I am ready to burn your vineyard for this.
Bwa haha ha. So much win, so much fail.
53. boson | August 23rd, 2011 at 1:28 pm
@48: that’s not true. more than five hundred thousand hungarian jews were deported to death camps is 1944, BEFORE the Nazi putsch, while Horthy was still governor.
54. PJ | August 23rd, 2011 at 1:35 pm
@48 I think the expression ‘between a rock and a hard place’ is very appropriate for Hungary during and at the end of the interwar period.
And for our non-Hungarian listeners a fun fact of the day: you’ll know it’s a traditionalist far-right troll when he implies Jewishness with bracketing Jewish family names. Which are sometimes true, I’ve to admit. But still.
Just sayin’. 🙂
55. Magyar | August 23rd, 2011 at 3:05 pm
#53: wikipedia is always a good place to start research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Hungary#Toward_the_Holocaust
Things turned ugly from March 1944.
“On March 18, 1944, Hitler summoned Horthy to a conference in Austria, where he demanded greater acquiescence from the Hungarian state. Horthy resisted, but his efforts were fruitless – while he attended the conference, German tanks rolled into Budapest.”
If you want to see how it would have turned out if Hungary gets German occupation before, see Jewish survival rates for Poland.
56. Jon | August 23rd, 2011 at 9:38 pm
i spend every day in my mommy’s basement surfing the internet and thinking “god i hate jews they’re the reason why i still live in my mom’s basement”
57. Jon | August 24th, 2011 at 5:03 am
I touched a nerve Mr Flaser? :DD
“Only jews and thieves take up other’s names” – Solschenyzin
58. Mr. Turul | August 24th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
@44 You might as well ignore Flaser and his kind: his comment indicates he is from the so-called “liberal-bolshevik”-spectrum of Hungarian politics. 🙂 (So, the Japaneese deserved it and had it coming, but the Jews didn’t? Hmmm…)
@13 Arrow Cross Fascists are back in power in Hungary??? You mean, now, today? You must live in an alternate universe, son…
@36 The “punishment of our war-crimes” was our “liberation” by the Red Army. We were sold out to the Soviet lock-stock-barrel at Yalta and Tehran conferences, and we begged to differ! The revolution of 1956 was one of the proudest moments in Hungarian history! And, by the way, what were the nazi war crimes committed by the Polish peoples, tell me, wise guy?
@53 That is not true. The deportation of the Jews from Hungary started after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. Horthy himself stopped the deportation of the Jews of Budapest (which was one of his worst political moves ever in my opinion).
59. Mr. Turul | August 24th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Dear War Nerd,
Rumour has it that the appointment of Horthy Miklós as the leader of the white army happened at the suggestion of British Intelligence.
And of course the Brits had their hand in the 1920 Trianon Treaty, and in its restoration in 1947 Paris. The Brits O.K.-d the carving up of Czechslovakia, when Hungary received back the Felvidék, but went back on their word.
And who has the right to frown on Hungary for siding with Hitler, when the “freedom-loving” Western Allies sided with Stalin and Communism, the forces of darkness and Satan? The only thing the Allies offered to Hungary in exchange to turn on Hitler and the German comrades-in-arms was…nothing and the restoration of the Trianon borders. I think Horthy becoming an alleged turncloak in 1944 was just an alibi and a pretense. Horthy must have known and counted on that the whole country would beg to differ to turn cloak. And we did not turn cloak!
The second video in your article, titled “Terror in Hungary during the Horthy regime” is a laugh. The painter of those drawings is a Bolshevik who escaped to Vienna when Kun (Cohen) Béla’s Communist regime fell. As he was in Vienna during the “white terror”, he was not witnessing it: all those pictures are figments of the painter’s imagination, and classic Bolshevik propaganda.
By the way, in contemporary Hungary, if one is called a “fascist” or “fascist scum”, especially from the mouth of the so-called “liberal-bolsheviks”, it is taken as a compliment, and it does not ring as a negative thing in Hungarian ears.
The young Hungarian rebels of 1956 revolution were called “fascist scum” by the Communists, too! Being called a “fascist scum” is being likened to the 1956 revolutionnaires in the ear of a patriotic Hungarian…
60. Cum | August 24th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Dear Mr. Turul,
You are scum.
Sincerely,
Cumowitz
61. Dan | August 24th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
Interesting take on a very screwed up time. Even though he twists it a couple of notches to find an extreme tone, overall in the large brush-strokes, he is pretty right about the stuff he says there. However, I wouldn’t be casting the first stone, taking sides for any country there. How would you feel if you lost two thirds of your territory? Then if someone – Hitler – promises back what you lost it’s easy to be morally “flexible”. But he’s right that before Hungary lost the territory in WW1, and they were the top dogs, they didn’t treat minorities and “lesser” neighbors very well. So the problem again is nationalism from all sides, and nationalist politics continues to dog the region today. And you still have strong undercurrents of both extreme right and extreme left there today. Not pleasant. My maternal grandmother, half Jewish, now 90, managed to survive that whole episode, but she is emotionally scarred for life. Really, to the extent that she had to spend some time (after WWII) in a mental hospital after a nervous breakdown.
Having said that, I’m just back from there and it’s a lovely place, at least to visit for holiday. I can strongly recommend Budapest to you, it’s a truly majestic city with a very vibrant scene.
62. Mr. Turul | August 24th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
@60
Dear Mr. Cum,
So? Care to elaborate? But, seriously:
do you really have to resort to name-calling and insults on a personal level?
Do you lack that much any valid arguments and knowledge with which to contribute to the discussion of the topic instead?
Sincerely…
63. Mircea | August 24th, 2011 at 4:27 pm
Dear Mr Turul, all that pop-eyed ranting about land and blood, thousand year empires, Jews under the bed, evil minorities getting what they deserve and bravely joining the SS is… well, it’s delicious!
You, Sir, win the award for the moustachioed Balkan fascist of the week. Let’s face it, a Hungarian or a Croat were going to win that one anyway… but still, hats off!
64. Jon | August 24th, 2011 at 11:28 pm
Hasbara Handbook:
page 22
Seven propaganda devices
Name Calling_
…Creating negative connotations by name calling is done to try and get the audience to reject a person or idea on the basis of negative associations, without allowing a REAL EXAMINATION of person or idea. The most obvious example is name calling – “they are a neo-Nazi group” tends to sound pretty negative to most people…
Come on people this handbook is no secret. 😀 You can do better than this. Well, you can’t.
65. the other Jon | August 25th, 2011 at 1:43 am
@ Jon
As someone also named Jon, I have to say: neo-nazi Jon, I am disappoint. You are a disgrace to the proud tradition of random guys on the internet named “Jon” without the “h.” Now fuck off to whatever collaborationist shithole you crawled out from.
66. Cum | August 25th, 2011 at 6:30 am
surprise!: fascist shits are scum and when they get called out on being hateful scum they double down on the jew-hate.
67. Jon | August 25th, 2011 at 7:43 am
Come on people, you can do better than that. Besides it is always one of the great mysteries of the world that most of your countries did’t give a sh*t about jews before.
You know right? The Evian Conference in July, 1938. All your heroic antifasist countries were there to declare jews does not matter. So why the sudden change? 😀
68. boson | August 25th, 2011 at 9:36 am
@55: so it did happen under Horthy. oh yeah, I know, under “German pressure”.
The fact that Hungary had a better survival rate than Poland has nothing to do with Horthy’s (nonexistent) benevolence. That is simply due to logistics, ie. the fact that the Red Army arrived before the Jews of Budapest could have been massacred.
BTW, the first massacre of Jews on a massive scale happened in 1941: http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/maramures/mar093.html
And Horthy’s Hungary passed the first antisemitic laws in Europe, in 1921.
May the bastard burn in hell.
69. Mr. Turul | August 25th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
@66
Mr.Cum,
I have already explained that the term “fascist scum” is a positive compliment in Hungarian ears, for the already mentioned historical reason of 1956.
But I have questions I always wanted to know the answers to, but never dared to ask. You, as a dedicated anti-fascist hero must know the score on them, so please enlighten me!
1. If I do not love Jews, what is more, if I dislike Jews, does that make me a bad, evil man by default? And those Jews who do not love non-Jews or dislike non-Jews, are they bad, evil men too, or is this just a one-way street?
2. If I do not believe in National Socialism, if I think the Rosenberg-type Aryan Übermensch-theory is a total BS, and as a Hungarian I do not like Germans for historical reasons, but I approve of Hungary siding with Hitler to conquer back our country and to liberate our peoples, does that make me an evil Nazi?
3. Is the noticing of the evident Jewish character of Marxism/Bolshevism some kind of taboo today? For some strange reason, Jewish Communist Party members, dictators and red terrorists do not count as Jews. Is this a Communist Party-specific transformation, or is it that any Jewish members of any political parties do not count as Jews?
70. Jon | August 25th, 2011 at 11:01 pm
Bad bad hungarian nazis. 😀 They had no reason to kill those poor innocent jews.
Red terror of the Lenin boys, led by Tibor (Samuel) Szamuely in 1919. Oh jeah original jew name must be in brackets 😀
Holy f*ck! 1919 happened just before 1921 and waaaaaaay before Hitler! Unbelievable!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_%28Hungary%29
Pretty pictures of the jewish communist murderers, Bela (Kohn=Cohen) Kun, Tibor (Samuel) Szamuely, Jenő Landler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Soviet_Republic
The fact is my dear brave antifacist scum, that these things are “irrelevant” for you and “do not matter”. Well lads, I have bad news. They did matter for us, did matter to Hitler and it did matter for all the jews on the cattle vagons. You know it don’t you? Eye for an eye. Next time they won’t bite the feeding hand.
71. atlas_sucked | August 26th, 2011 at 1:53 am
Mr. Turul apparently conflates John Dolan/Gary Brecher/exiledonline with stormfront.org.
John Dolan has written numerous times about the idiots who let their own tribal allegiances trump everything else. If you’re going to dislike people solely on the basis of ethnicity, it just plays into Dolan’s cynical misanthropy. Mr. Turul’s persona will be another example of tribal idiocy.
72. Jon | August 26th, 2011 at 4:20 am
Oh, come on what is funny rubbish about tribal idiocy on ethnicity problems? 😀
If it is so bad why does everyone here supports jews, Israel and Zionism to kill Palestinians on their own lands just for their ethnicity, color of skin and religion? And yet yapping about love-thy-neighbour-or-you-are-a-nazi stuff?
Put down that Hasbara handbook, it is useless now! 😀
73. Mr. Turul | August 26th, 2011 at 4:17 pm
@71
No, I am commenting on the correct topic. The article was about Hungarian fascism, wasn’t it?
What I tried to explain was two historical things:
1. What was the reason why Hungary sided with Hitler?
The main reason was the Trianon Treaty of 1920. Hitler helped us to take back the Hungarian lands and liberate the Hungarian peoples over the Trianon borders.
2. What was the reason why Hungary turned fascist and anti-semitic?
The main reason was the red terror of the Bolshevik regime of Kun (Cohen) Béla in 1919. Also, we should not forget the “Rat-Revolution” of Károlyi Mihály in 1918, leading directly to Trianon.
What I dislike most, is when other people are trying to “teach” me how am I supposed to think and what am I supposed to think.
I admit freely to my “tribal thinking”, I am in fact proud of it. During Communism, such pro-Hungarian “tribal thinking” was persecuted, we were not even allowed to talk about Trianon. And you know the saddest part of the story? The Trianon borders still stand!
DOWN WITH THE TRIANON TREATY!
74. Mr. Turul | August 26th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Dear All,
A question to all of you, especially to the anti-fascist keyboard heroes who think WW2 was a good vs. evil story:
Horthy was bestest pals with Hitler, Hungary was an Axis country, right?
Why was it then, that when Hitler attacked Poland, Hungary refused to take part in the invasion? Why was it that Horthy refused to let the Germans use Hungarian territories during the invasion against Poland? Why did Horthy order the Hungarian troops to shoot on the Germans if they tried to use Hungarian territories in the war against Poland? Why did the Hungarians accept into Hungary all the refugees from Poland, Polish officers, troops and Polish civilians, with open arms, refusing to give them over to the Germans?
Why is it that as a “fascist scum” I approve of this, that I am proud of this, and rhat I would have done the same?
Any ideas? Hmm?
75. Mr. Turul | August 28th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Dear All,
It seems nobody could answer my question… But it is very easy, although you can not answer it from the good Allies vs. evil Axis angle!
Hitler even offered Horthy a part from Poland, and according to War Nerd, Hungary was eager to “stealing land from other gangs”. Well, Horthy said: No fucking way!
The answer is:
“Polak-Wenger dva bratanki, ido sabli, ido sklanki!”
“Polish-Hungarian two brothers, fight together, dring together!”
In other words, long live the eternal Polish-Hungarian friendship, God bless Poland and her peoples!
Interesting that, at Trianon in 1920, Poland got a little part of Northern Hungary, to which the Hungarians reacted like: too bad not the whole of Felvidék (Northern Hungary) got into the safe-keeping of our Polish brothers!
See, Hungarians never wanted to “steal lands from other gangs”, Hungary only ever wanted justice, to take back the lands that was our country for the previous 1000 years, and wanted to liberate our peoples living under enemy occupation since 1918! (Including half of my family in Transsylvania!)
The taking part in the Anti-Bolshevist Crusade against the Soviet, was the result of the bombing of Kassa, which is still a mystery today.
But bravely fighting against the Soviet till the last moment without turning cloak was the right decision, considering the history of the next 50 years.
And the moral of the story is: Poland was on the Allies’ side sice Day 1, and at the end they received the same treatment as Hungary:
in our neck of the woods, everybody got the Communist opression, being former Allied or Axis made no difference.
But without Hitler’s help to take back part of our country, without the few years of the “Kis Magyar Világ” (“little Hungarian world”), the lot of the Hungarians over the Trianon borders would have been un-bearable.
JUSTICE FOR HUNGARY!
76. Vendetta | August 29th, 2011 at 9:26 am
Oh for fuck’s sake Turul
77. CAliopé | August 29th, 2011 at 11:31 am
Turul is great example of hungarian red neck neo-nazi. Lot of this lowminded people just cant accept history as it is. But comming up with some Horthy fairy tales.
78. Mr. Turul | August 29th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
@76 Vendetta
Care to elaborate what you mean?
79. Mr. Turul | August 29th, 2011 at 11:26 pm
@77
Begging your pardon?
Redneck? Rednecks are Southern rural Americans. I live in Europe.
Neo-nazi? My flag is the red-white-green, not the Swastika.
I can accept history as it is, but the present problems stem from past events, like Trianon.
Horthy fairy-tales? Exactly what you are talking about? Him stopping the deportations from Budapest, or not taking part in the invasion of Poland? Because both happened, son, it is only you are ignorant in your lack of knowledge and imagined moral high ground.
So:
1. Learn some history.
2. Remember, hating the so-called nazis does not make you a better man, it did not make Stalin a better man, either. You need more than that, sorry.
80. Jon | August 29th, 2011 at 11:41 pm
@ That is right! Accept history as the rabbis command else you will be called stupid and anti-semitic, nazi and never ever ask a question about USS Liberty! 😀
81. Jon | August 30th, 2011 at 3:37 am
@79
Pal, you are wasting your breath on these. They won’t debate with you. Name calling techniqe is not for point scoring according to their Hasbara handook. They are simply evading answering the question. Find it in their Hasbara handbook page 31 “Just walk away: When not to engage”.
I guess they are either,
A/ Shabess gentiles, stupid and obedient creatures bred to be living apron where their jew masters can wipe their cocks after taking a piss.
They are more despised by their own masters than by you or me. Ignore them, even their masters call them cattle. Netanjahu called them scum, so shall you.
or my opinion
B/ Jews. In this case it is pointless to debate with them. The truth is that they jolly good know that they sinned against us and everybody else on this world and they know that we are well aware of it. And you are aware who they truly are and this is why they are so pissed off.
Their money worshipping religion prescribes KOL-NIDRE, that they must lie on every occasion. That means they would die sooner than give away money on something without interest rate but would never violate their own religion.
And don’t think they hate you for being hungarian or what Hungary or Germany ever did, they hate this whole planet which is not jew. Especially hate those who did them good. They cannot accept being in debt, so they kill their creditor.
Just take a look at the USA. G.I-s risked their neck to save jews in ww2 and how did jews thanked them? They backstabbed the USA by attacking USS Liberty. What do you expect from these lot?
82. BM | August 30th, 2011 at 9:37 am
An amazingly good article for someone not from eastern Europe. 99% of Americans could never have been cpable of writing something like this. Some minor corrections:
1. Horthy was a White counterevolutionary who predated fascism. He was a conservative reactionary but not a fascist (the Hungarian Arrow Cross whom he kept in line and who replaced him in 1944 were fascists). Horthy was comparable to the Russian Admiral Kolchak, Wrangel, Kornilov, etc. rather than to fascists. If the Whites had won the Russian civil war Rusia would have sort of resembled Horthy’s Hungary. I’ll bet the White generals would have even found some excuse not to let Nicholas’ heirs back into the country.
2. Since all central/eastern European governments were authoritarian and reactionary, it makes little sense to insult Horthy as a “fascist.” It’s like dismssing any pre-1860 southern American politican such as Washington as “slave owner.” Horthy’s Hungary was not too bad in the context of its times and its neighborhood. The Jews were spared while he was in charge, for example.
3. I think all the photos of Horthy with Hitler are just demagoguery, sorry. There are plenty of photos of Churchill with Stalin, that doesn’t make Churchill a commie. Churchill was willing to ally with Stalin because he wanted to save his country. Horthy allied with Hitler in order to save his country. So what? That’s just the nature of the neighborhood that Hungary was in.
83. BM | August 30th, 2011 at 9:45 am
A comment elicited by some of the antisemites’ comments here. In the violent tribal mutual slaughter of east-central Europe at that time the Jews were just one of the many tribes who were killing each other. They were neither the evil instigators that antisemites claim them to be nor the blameless victims they prsent themselves to be (just as Hungarians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc. all present themselves as). Like everyone else, they were both victims and perpetrators, they just suffered more as a people than the other ones did because they were singled out by the Germans (the best organized and most effiecient killers of all), and have much better PR in the West than do the others.
84. BM | August 30th, 2011 at 9:55 am
To Mr. Turul:
Don’t sugarcoat Hungarian actions. Like everyone else in that neighborhood, the Hungarians were both oppressed and oppressors, depending on the their capabilities. Yes, the Hungarians in Romania were persecuted, but the Hungarians also repressed the Slovaks and Ukrainians when they had the chance. They also worked together with the Poles, their allies, to suppress the Ukrainians before and in the early stages of the war.
Interesting anecdote: in retribution for Hungarian suppression of Ukrainians, during the war Ukrainian nationalists responded by killing Hungarians civilians and Hungarian troops. To stop this, the Hungarian military and Ukrainian nationalists worked out a deal whereby Hungarians would be left alone in exchange for a steady supply of Hungarian weapons – used to, among other things, kill Hungary’s German allies and slaughter Polish civilians whom Hungarians love. It’s like Rwanda, but with white people, modern weapons instead of machetes, and with 6 (Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, Communists, Hungarians) rather than 2 sides scheming with each other or killing each other.
85. Mr. Turul | August 30th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
@ 84
Dear BM,
you can not even imagine how refreshing it is for me to read comments from someone who is talking sense and understands what the story was all about.
I bet it would come as a great shock to those commenters who see WW2 as a good vs. evil story, that the mentioned partisans of the Ukraine were just as anti-Bolshevist as they were anti-Nazi, and the thing those Ukrainian partisans wanted less than the German occupation was their Soviet “liberation”…
86. Jon | August 31st, 2011 at 2:56 am
Mr BM
I have only one question:
When/how did hunagrians oppressed slovaks, ukrainians, jews in Hungary?
I am just referring to the 1867 year laws established by the second hungarian government. These rights aren’t mandatory, aren’t birthright, these rights were GIVEN by Hungary!
Short history:
1570-The king of Hungary was the emperor of Austria. It means austrian government.
1848. First hungarian government. Democracy was crushed by the despotic monarchies of Austria and Russian+Serbians+Slovaks+Romanians.
1849-1867 Austrian government.
1867 Parley after Koeniggraetz. Second Hungarian government. as above. Jews begun settling in in masses fleeing from russian pogroms. Hungary has no right to intervene in imperial warfare and foreign affairs.
The minorities received AUTONOMY. Autonomy is a beautiful word. Autonomy means everything except giving away the territory. These bad hungarians do not have autonomy on their own land not even today. But they are bad nazis still who shouldn’t be treated equally in any democracy. sic!
Ukrainians in the Carpathians:
According to cold hard facts Ukraininas has no right to say anything.
1.Ukraine never existed before 24 aug, 1991.
2.That Carpathian territory was Hungarian for 1000 years. In 1920 it became Czechslovakian, not Ukraine.
3.Those Sicz guardists who started a rebellion were criminals according to the civil laws, which paragraph can be found in every country.
What I do in my house is my right and my business.
By the way if ukrainians favor Stalin who killed 7-10 million ukrainians by starving them, it is their choice.
All in all:
If I have a house with many flats and I give them out to rent. Alien people move in monday and tuesday they claim that the flats belong to them.
What should I do?
Shall I say, yes it is yours, take whatever you want even my wive and kids? Or kick them?
87. BM | August 31st, 2011 at 1:21 pm
@86
A nice illustration of the Central/Eastern European mess. Carpathian lands were East Slavic before the Magyars/Hungarians arrived in the ninth century. This region had been part of Kieven Rus. Hungarians (and Jews) formed a small majority in the towns but most of the territory was ethnic East Slavic/Ukrainian (according to the 1930 census, it was 16% Hungarian and 62% Ukrainian). Feel free to google ethnic maps for the region. In 1938, after Munich, Czechoslovakia gave up various territories and Hungary got the southern and western part of this region including the largest cities where most of the Hungarian population lived. Thus, the rest of the province – the area that declared independence and was brutally invaded by Hungary – was virtually all Ukrainian. This was a territory that had cultural autonomy when it had been part of Czechoslovakia. When Czechoslovakia officulaly ceased to exist the Slovak and Ukrainian autonomous region declared independence. The Slovaks declsared their alliance with Hitler and their territory was kept intact. The Ukrainian part had no such deal and was immediately invaded by Hungary. Therefore Ukrainian nationalists brag that they were the first people to fight Hitler’s allies in Eastern Europe.
It was no rebellion – the previous Czechoslovak government didn’t fight aganst the Ukrainians and indeed Czech troops shot at the advancing Hungarians before fleeing. Ukrainian nationalists fighting against Hungarians on Ukrainian lands were as much criminals as Hungarians rising against their commie government in 1956 were criminals. Large numbers of them were executed on the banks of the Tisa River by the Hungarians. The Ukrainian nationalist, of course, returned the favor by killing Hungrians later in the war.
The Hungarian land-grab of Ukrainan-populated territory in 1939 was basically a favor for the Poles (the two countries engaged in diplomacy concerning it, before the invasion). The Poles didn’t want a Ukrainian nationalist state bordering Poland stirring up trouble for them. Because Hungary was Germany’s ally the Poles also hoped that this would convince the Ukrainians, who like eveyone else had been working with the Germans, that the Germans were not a reliable ally and that they should make a deal with the Poles.
88. BM | August 31st, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Again, @86:
Here is a map of ethnic groups in the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary, form 1910., created by a Hungarian (so don’t claim bias). Virtually all of Carpatho-Ukraine is Ruthenian/Ukrainian, not Hungarian (green colored rather than red).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Ethnographic_map_of_hungary_1910_by_teleki_carte_rouge.jpg
Face it: Hungarians were oppressors and invaders in March 1939, drawing first blood when they shot Ukrainian activists, many of whom were young idealistic students fighting for their country, in cold blood and dumping their bodies in the river Tisa.
89. Evilcor | September 2nd, 2011 at 4:03 am
I love this shit. The internet is 75% porn, 8% lolcats, and most of the rest is balkan peasants shouting over 800 year old vendettas. This happens every time somebody posts to a blog or Youtube and states an opinion about some swarthy shithole south of the Danube.
Mr. Turul, Jon (the Nazi), et al. . . can’t you see you’re in love with each others’ goats? Now go find the Gypsy Warlock or whatever and make it official.
Also – never ever read the comments on a Youtube video relating to Serbia; the Croats lose their fucking minds there.
90. Jon (the Nazi) | September 4th, 2011 at 1:49 am
Dear BM
I say again. It doesn’t matter who else settled down in HUNGARY. It could have been ukrainians, serbo-croats, germans, french, italians, jews, vlachs, chinese, hottentottes, penguins etc.
Because it is H U N G A R Y and not Ukraine, not Serbia, not Croatia, not Germany, not etc. H U N G A R Y. It is all about who owns the realm and no trianon can make it different. So do not talk about rights, laws, maps, other ethnics etc. because: My house is MY castle. Got it? If you gave away your heritage willingly, it was your choice.
It is not a question about being jew or his shabbes gentile or one of the 5 billion antisemite, or being fascist or being a bent backed broken and willingless slave. It is all about knowing who you are and who your elders were.
91. Black Monk | September 6th, 2011 at 6:58 am
And before H U N G A R Y owned it, Transcarpathia was part of Kieven Rus, ruled from Kiev. K I E V. Their castle, right?
You are into historical ownership. Did you know that the original Magyar homeland is somewhere in north-central Asia? Perhaps you should go home to Russia? They have a declining population there and could use the extra people, and with a population of only a few million the Hungarians would be assimilated after only a few generations.
Come home, your castle is empty and is calling for you.
92. Carney | September 8th, 2011 at 9:05 pm
The photograph entitled H&H: Secret “Pro-British” Handshake is actually of Hitler with Tsar Boris III of Bulgaria, not Admiral Horthy.
93. Subutai | September 24th, 2011 at 7:32 pm
Since we’re in the neighbourhood and it has already been mentioned: please tell us the story of the Romanian Iron Guard!
Have been dying to know more about them since WN wrote that they make even him flinch, but all my sources are so fuckin’ boring compared to WN-articles.
Please write us an article about Codreanu and his boys!
94. Hungarian | October 13th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
BM
About subcarpathia you keep talking about Ukrainians, I happen to have a GF from that area, and she is rusin, like everyone else in her village. I doubt that more than a few 1000 Ukrainian leaves in whole subcarpathia. When she meets with her real Ukrainian friends she has to change to ukrainan, because they don’t understand rusin, different language, religion, culture, etc.
About Jews and anti-Semitism,
I think we should separate anti-Semitism from the actual killing of the Jews.
Anti-Semitism was and still a national sport around Europe, and the teams get better how you going to the east. And yes we hungarians were pretty good in it, but never played it to rough. Our Slavic brothers introduced the pogroms and started to kill the jews – long before hitler – in their primitiv way. Until the nazis brought in technology and organization skill and brought the killing to a whole new level. And we “everyday” antisemits fraking loved it.
And thats why the west did not care too much about it in the 30s. Antismitism in europe? So what? It is not news really. No one could imagine what the nazis capable of, not that time.
So yes Horthy was a fasict dictator but not a nazi (he was to posh for Hitler), we fucked up our minority problems, and we paid for it dearly, we try to turn side to late and most our elite and army was pro german anyway, so we fucked it up. We hated jews and with nazi help killed them all(could not do it alone). The main tragedy for today hungarians is that Hitler’s borders actually were the most fair, it pretty much followed the ethnic line in slovakia and in north transylvania.
BTW I have to agree with our russian commenter in one thing, without Hitler fucked up crusade we would never have to live under the control of those fucked up retards (Soviets).
95. hgf | October 16th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Another Hungarian here. Now he’s a historian. Yes, we are everywhere 🙂
The present Hungarian political extreme right is an interesting phenomenon. They have all kinds of fairy tales about our history, none of which is right according to real historians. Extremists tend to think that Hungarians have their historical right to own the whole Carpathian basin because 1) fuck every other nations’ right to their own state and 2) 20th century didn’t really happen, it’s just a bad dream and we shall wake up soon. Oh, and the Jews, they are behind everything.
However, present Hungarian extreme right is not Nazi nor fascist in strict historical terms. They hate most of our neighbors, they really, really hate Gypsies, and of course the Jews, but they don’t have either real polical agenda or a real (historical) philosophy. All they have are fairy tales. So calling them Nazis or fascists is misleading. The correct political term for them is something like “extreme nationalists”.
And please don’t belive anything they say about history (especially 20th century). Their point of view is corrupted by wishful thinking, plain denial and said fairy tales.
—————
War Nerd:
this is a great article, but it has it’s flaws. Horthy’s role was not that dark, nor was he a fan of Nazis (not even of Germans), and most of the time he was forced in his decisions by our inside politics (take back those areas! nothing less could possibly be a political agenda at the time), and simply our state in Europe, which didn’t allow him not to be friends with Germany. But Horthy looked down on Nazi ideology, thought it was barbarian, and tried to resist Germany where he could. It’s a historical fact that for a long time during WW2, Hungary was the safest place for Jews in Europe, specifically because Horthy and the governments refused to do anything with them or let Germans do any harm to them. After he was gone, both Germans and the Hungarian extreme right was free to bring Holocaust in Hungary.
The current Hungarian historical evaluation of Horthy is not clear yet, because there are still emotional debates, but the majority of Hungarian historians agree that Horthy was not a friend nor a willing ally of Hitler, and he tried really hard to keep Hungary out of the Nazi madness.
Real people, even if dictators, are seldom simple dumbs or villains. Of course, things look simpler from that far and Exile is not a journal of intended historical accuracy. Still, great article – I only wish you not over-simplify things that much.
96. Marton | December 15th, 2011 at 12:58 am
Thumbs up hgf!
————————-
Extreme right supporters always discredit themselves by blaming the jews on ridiculous levels, therefore they never stand a chance of being taken seriously in any argument.
97. Margo Adler | September 9th, 2012 at 7:23 am
That picture of Admiral Horthy underneath the ones of him and Hilter is hilarious. Look at those medals and epaulettes! Jesus! He looks like Capt’n Crunch or a parody character in a Charlie Chapman film.
Good article, WN. Very informative. I learned a lot.
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