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Going Postal / January 13, 2011

glock-beta-600

A huge number of “going postal” rampage massacres that I’ve studied feature Glocks, including last Saturday’s assassination-rampage in Tucson. What is it about the Austrian-made handgun that makes it such a favorite of rampage killers, not to mention narco-gang-bangers and anyone looking to rack up a newsworthy kill count?

I asked some of my gun-enthusiast friends, and thought I’d share with you the two most interesting responses. Both asked to remain anonymous for obvious reasons—this isn’t a popular time to talk honestly about the pros and cons of Glocks.

The first gun-enthusiast is a former serviceman and war veteran who owns a Glock himself, and has had extensive professional experience with a variety of weapons; the second is an old friend of mine from Texas (meaning he was born with a gun in his crib) who has always had impeccable taste in guns, more of a gun connoisseur than mere enthusiast.

glock17target

Q: Why the Glock?

Ex-Serviceman: Yeah I know a lot about them. I have one.

It’s a phenomenally well-made weapon and is, ceteris paribus, more reliable than Berettas and S&W. The action is a lot simpler and thus easier and faster to clean. The safety is actually in the trigger, it’s basically a trigger on the trigger, so accidental discharges from dropping it or jarring it are virtually impossible. Unlike many/most semiautomatic handguns the hammer is not exposed and all shots are double-action, which makes it more predictable to handle in stressful situations when fine motor skills decrease. For a Beretta, the first shot requires a fair amount of pressure to pull the trigger because the hammer has to be cocked (“double action”) while for subsequent shots the hammer remains cocked so there is what’s commonly referred to as a “hair trigger” (single action). If you are a rookie cop in his first gunfight, the rapid discrepancy between the amounts of trigger pressure required for the first and second shots is not necessarily a good thing and can lead to inadvertent discharges, poor marksmanship, etc. By contrast, on the Glock you have to cock the hammer via the trigger pull in every shot, i.e. every shot is double action and requires the same amount of pressure. This makes the weapon inherently safer to handle and is probably the main reason we bought it for the Iraqis.

As mentioned before, it’s also a beautifully made weapon and is very light due to the use of plastics for the pistol grip. No matter what the caliber it generally holds a few more rounds in its magazine than other types of handgun, again due to efficient design. And they’re very reasonably priced given the high quality.

The reason that it has its place in popular culture and whatnot would be a great research paper topic. My guess is that, per Occam’s razor, the cops, gangbangers, and psychos of the world just figured they might as well use a high quality handgun.

Of course, to the Upper-West-Side pussy liberal armchair policy analyst, the fact that a Glock was used in this shooting jars something in their consciousness about the fact that Glocks are mentioned frequently in the rap music that they listened to while trying to be cool back when they were a freshman at Wesleyan, and they are outraged that such a heinous weapon can be legally bought and owned like any other, equally deadly comparable weapon. Why not just do away with the Second Amendment altogether? Sigh….

glock shoulder fired automatic exiledonline

Q: Why the Glock?

Texas Gun-Enthusiast: I’m not sure. I think it is just the brand name. Personally, I don’t like the Glock. It doesn’t sit well in my hand, and I don’t the like the feel when I shoot it. I much prefer the Sig-Sauer. That’s what I own. It sits comfortably in my hand, and after a few magazines my wrist still feels ok, too.

In summary, I think these high profile killers are just amateurs. Much like all the Muslim terrorists. The only professional killers left in the world are American or European Special Forces.

A little web searching seems to show that the US armed forces choose SIG, Baretta, or H&K for their side arms.

*    *    *

Mark Ames is the author of Going Postal: Rage, Murder and Rebellion: From Reagan’s Workplaces to Clinton’s Columbine and Beyond.

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78 Comments

Add your own

  • 1. Lavrentij "Anarchy99" Lemko  |  January 13th, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    Fijian special forces are reputed to be the best:

    http://un-truth.com/un-peacekeeping/fijian-soldiers-mercenaries-and-peacekeepers

  • 2. Just a Thought  |  January 13th, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    As a minor -ahem- gun enthusiast myself, I think there is a more likely explanation: virtually every gun store in America has them. I think it is just a numbers game: you walk into a gun store with $450 and tell the guy at the counter you are a novice, he’ll reccomend a Glock. I’d love to see marketshare numbers, but I guarantee it is the best selling handgun in the US. Almost every major police department uses them so gun stores carry them to sell to cops. Hell, Springfield armory designed a gun specifically to compete with Glock, the XD.

  • 3. Rubbadubba  |  January 13th, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    “Why not just do away with the Second Amendment altogether. . . ?”

    Hmmmmm. Why not? Or why not take up the Archie Bunker solution to air piracy: just give everybody a gun. In fact, mandate it. 27th Amendment: from the moment of birth, all citizens of the U.S. of A. will pack.

  • 4. Mike C.  |  January 13th, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    Most gun owners I know don’t like the Glock. I don’t know anything about rap lyrics, but since cops use ‘em, I think it gives them an air of credibility, founded or not. It’s like the notion that the military is apolitical, or that corporations are efficient.

    The safety features of the Glock are interesting, but it’s easier to aim (for me, at least) when the trigger pull is light and short. I hate revolvers because of this. Unless I want to shoot like a dumbass cowboy star, or keep pulling the hammer back with my thumb like Dirty Harry, I’m stuck with double action, and the stiffness throws my aim off.

    Plus, yeah, the handles are blocky. I’m a fan of the 1911. Can’t fuck with the classics. Plus, I like the irony of being half Filipino, and using the pistol issued to take our asses out.

    Finally, on an unrelated note, I was accused of being a Republican for owning and firing guns recreationally. Ideological liberals have to get their balls back from these hippies who think advocating fair social policies has to go with croc tears for Tibet and eating Tofurkey.

    How do those assholes think their beloved Che did it? Stop making conservatives look right about you by imitating the pussy straw-man they’re belittling!

  • 5. proletariat  |  January 13th, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    the soldier nailed it at the end. the glock is just the most popular pistol in pop culture.

    the texas guy’s statement REALLY reeks of cross burning.

  • 6. Phil  |  January 13th, 2011 at 6:15 pm

    Glocks are popular with criminals for the same reason they’re popular with cops and regular folks: reliability, ease of use, affordability/value-for-money, light weight, high ammo capacity, availability of accessories (like the extended mag Loughner used) and of course simple name recognition.

    Simply put, Glocks are good guns, and well known. Kinda like the Toyota of the handgun world.

    That said I don’t own one myself, since I object to several features I consider unsafe (light trigger pull with no manual safety, and the fact that you have to depress the trigger to disassemble it for cleaning– whose idea was that?!)

  • 7. DocAmazing  |  January 13th, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    Having been shooting with Professor Robo, I can attest that he does indeed handle a SIG-Sauer with great facility. However, I still prefer the Glock due to its robustness and simplicity.

    And Just a Thought above mentions that Springfield copied the Glock in making the XD (it’s actually a Croatian pistol, no less a Glock clone for that), but that’s just the tip of the mock-Glock iceberg: the Smith and Wesson Sigma series, the S&W M&P, and the Walther P99 are all Glock swipes, to varying extents, and they’re only the most popular ones.

  • 8. Wyse Guy  |  January 13th, 2011 at 7:14 pm

    Glocks = The Kalashnikov of the US.

    Nice to hear that.

  • 9. Fissile  |  January 13th, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    Phil #6 nailed it, “Kinda like the Toyota of the handgun world.”

    Glock is the number one choice for rank & file cops because they are reliable and as idiot-proof as a gun can get. Interestingly, SWAT teams, as well as other special police squads, generally prefer other handgun designs over the Glock, even the hoary 1911 is still in use. Most rank and file cops are not gun enthusiasts, and take the job for the high pay and benefits.

    Amateurs are drawn to the Glock for similar reasons. The number one reason: No steep learning curve. The Glock also gets a lot of free advertisement via gangsta-thug culture. The fact that it is reasonably priced means that it’s affordable by the Ramen for lunch crowd.

    I own a few handguns(included a Glock 23), and have owned, or fired, just about every type commonly available, from single action revolvers to double action only autos.

    The Glock is reliable, and easy to use, but it doesn’t point all that naturally, however that’s not a big problem if you’re blasting away at point blank rank like Crazy Jared.

    If I had to give up all my handguns save one, I’d keep my CZ75.

  • 10. A Silver Mt. Paektu  |  January 13th, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    Glocks aren’t nearly as common among criminals as rap lyrics make them out to be. Just like not every would-be 50 Cent who rhymes about his Rolex actually owns a watch that costs as much as a car, a gangbanger with a Glock is a particularly well armed cornerboy. A Glock is a gangster status symbol because of its relative scarcity on the streets. The illicit gun market is chock-full of very cheap and very used guns. Hi-Points bought in bulk by semi-professional straw purchasers, stolen S&W wheelguns, and Taurus knockoffs of better pistols are your most common banger sidearms. What Glocks are actually on the American black market are generally there because they were stolen from the homes of legal owners.

    White Americans drive the civilian gun market and it’s safe to assume that the majority of honky pistol purchasers who choose Glocks don’t do so because of some deep affinity for Tupac. My bet is on a split between Glock’s favorable price to quality ratio and typical cracker police fetishism. Joe Suburbanite might love the cops who shield him from neoliberalism’s domestic falout even more than he loves the soldiers who enforce the new imperialism abroad.

  • 11. paul cripps  |  January 13th, 2011 at 8:37 pm

    well said mike c, as a trade unionist you really do get tired of the weak liberal agenda; where about pay and conditions and keeping our jobs, i will worry about ,gays,whales and tibet when we sort those issues out. not too many republicans come around our water front and call us pussys.the glock is more like the volkswagon of hand guns. the peoples car the peoples gun.

  • 12. Derp  |  January 13th, 2011 at 8:50 pm

    Derp derp derp! Only conservatives buy guns, most libs are afraid of em so most assassins will always be killing Dims, derp derp derp!

  • 13. CensusLouie  |  January 13th, 2011 at 10:00 pm

    The Texas guy’s 2nd paragraph sounds like a War Nerd blurb on every Tom Clancy fan.

    Call terrorists every heinous name you want, but amateur? They’re a million times more organized and effective than doughy militia types.

  • 14. Sam  |  January 13th, 2011 at 11:34 pm

    I have friends who love Glocks. Personally, I think it looks and feels like a brick. I do understand the appeal, though. They are ubiquitous, moderately priced, easy to use and as reliable as a high-quality Sig.

    Truth be told, I’ve handled several different types of handguns, and almost any handgun made in the last 10 years is reasonably accurate and highly reliable. Even US-made garbage works 98% of the time or better (provided you don’t use hollow points. They tend to feed poorly).

  • 15. Mike C.  |  January 14th, 2011 at 2:28 am

    I was mistaken about the trigger pull.

    http://members.cox.net/guntraining/glocks.htm

    Was either thinking of a revolver, or the first shot on another pistol.

  • 16. derpotism  |  January 14th, 2011 at 4:42 am

    lol both those guys can’t stop whining about liberals. The soldiers’ just all “I can’t help myself, I MUST insult the Left in some way in this statement” and the texan’s just all “the only good killers are american and europeans, them chinks n’ niggers n’ Ay-rabs can’t shoot fer’ sheet PRAISE JESUS”.

  • 17. lars  |  January 14th, 2011 at 5:54 am

    Look up ‘ballistic fingerprinting’ on Wikipedia.
    Here are short excerpts relevant to Glocks:

    Ballistic fingerprinting techniques are based on the principle that all firearms have inevitable variations due to marks left by the machining process, leaving shallow impressions in the metal which are rarely completely polished out. Also, normal wear and tear from use can cause each firearm to acquire distinct characteristics over time.

    When a bullet is fired through a rifled barrel, the raised and lowered spirals of the rifling etch fine grooves called “striations” into the bullet. These can be matched with the barrel through which the bullet was fired. Examiners distinguish between striations common to all guns of a particular type (“class characteristics”) and those unique to a particular gun (“individual characteristics”).

    The class characteristics depend upon the type of rifling in the barrel, which varies among manufacturers and models in number and shape of the grooves, twist rate, and direction. Colt, for example, traditionally uses a left-hand twist, while Smith and Wesson uses a right hand twist; a current production M16 rifle uses a 1 in 7 inch twist, while most civilian AR-15s and the current Mini-14 use a 1 in 9 inch twist. Marlin Firearms use a distinctive 16-groove Micro-Groove rifling in many of their firearms, while the M1903 Springfield rifle had two, four, or six grooves depending on the manufacturer. Polygonal rifling may leave striations that are difficult to match to a particular barrel.

    - – -
    Glock uses a polygonal shaped barrel, octagonal, where the flat sides of the octagon perform the rifling.
    - – -

    Polygons with a larger number of edges provide a better gas seal in relatively large diameter polygonally rifled bores. In the Glock pistol, for instance, octagonal rifling is used in the large diameter .45 ACP bore, which has a 11.23 mm (0.442 in) diameter, since it resembles a circle more closely than the hexagonal rifling used in smaller diameter bores.

    Polygonal rifling prevents the forensic firearms examiner from microscopically measuring the width of land and groove impressions because the lands and grooves have a rounded profile instead of a well-defined rectangular profile. In the FBI GRC file, the land and groove widths for these firearms are listed as 0.000.

    - – -
    Bottom line: experts can’t tell for sure what gun fired what bullets during forensic investigations. Which may be the underlying hidden agenda of the cops, and assassins, for using Glocks, or polygonal barreled guns.

    A second shooter in the AZ massacre last weekend ? If so nobody could tell from the bullets !

  • 18. C  |  January 14th, 2011 at 8:52 am

    Mike C. makes a great point about liberals, being one myself.

    “Of course, to the Upper-West-Side pussy liberal armchair policy analyst, … they are outraged that such a heinous weapon can be legally bought and owned like any other, equally deadly comparable weapon. Why not just do away with the Second Amendment altogether? Sigh….”

    Ad hominem attacks, straw man sweeping generalizations, emotional projection; all the signs of an intellectual weakling. Whats a shame is that the political conflict in this country is mostly perpetuated by such low IQ individuals.

    The right wing needs to remember that high intelligence individuals are what make society possible. Others are either chattel(economic or in war), pull their own weight at best, or are burdens on society. If you want to be perceived as an intelligent individual, you must think and argue like one. Otherwise, you are actually preventing a free society.

  • 19. calripson  |  January 14th, 2011 at 8:56 am

    Glocks are popular because of mass media hype and the fact that police departments routinely puke their used Glocks back into the secondary market. Glocks are popular with the police because it is monkey see monkey do…there is no risk in buying the same gun all the other departments are buying (just like HK submachine guns for SWAT). In reality, cops are always shooting themselves accidentally with Glocks because (like most elite handguns
    for “professionals”) they have no external safety…they might not fire when dropped, but they sure as hell fire when an idiot inadvertently pulls the trigger while holstering or unholstering the weapon. Real pros use modified 1911′s, not plastic Glocks.

  • 20. Kostas K  |  January 14th, 2011 at 9:13 am

    Actually, it has a semi double action trigger.
    The firing pin (striker)stays at half cock, so that if the gun is dropped and the internal safety fails, there is not enough energy to ignite the primer. It is a very well made, extremely reliable and easy to use pistol. It is not intended for target shooting though.

  • 21. BigSteve  |  January 14th, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Shouldn’t this article really be called “One Gun Enthusiast…”? The second interviewee was about as useless as tits on a bull. He used this opportunity to talk about how much he loves Sig Sauers. This is a clear sign that he’s not an expert by any measure; he’s actually an ignorant redneck crackpot.

  • 22. Flaser  |  January 14th, 2011 at 10:30 am

    Glocks are cheap, widely available and easy to use. Point & Shoot. Just pull the trigger and that’s it. The low trigger pull makes it even easier.

    It also means a lot more people cap themselves or people they didn’t mean to shoot in the first place with this gun, since it has no *real safety features*.

    The gun won’t go off if it’s dropped, but if you keep in in a drawer and blindly grope for it, you better pray you don’t accidentally pull the trigger… which is a distinct possibility since this gun has one of the softest trigger pulls. Keeping it in a holster is a good idea.

    Better guns have more comprehensive safety measures – like a manual safety – but to use these in a crisis you actually have to train with them, as the necessary actions don’t lend themselves as well as just pulling the trigger like on a Glock.

  • 23. Mike C.  |  January 14th, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    @C

    Sad but true. There are intelligent conservos, but the correlation with smarts generally goes liberal and religiously moderate or atheist.

    Calling conservatism an ideology is misleading. As we’ve seen in the seamless transition from the macho , yet victimized posturing of the Limbaughs, to more literal crybabies like Glenn Beck; or from evangelical piety to the atheistic self-centeredness of Rand, they’ll adopt whatever knee-jerk reaction is advocated by the powerful and certain-sounding (be it Bush II, or the Kochs).

    Look at Sarah Palin. Her befuddlement at simple political questions is always followed by a reminder of the emotional narrative to which Libertards and Repubs respond. Don’t know what the Bush Doctrine is? Shout terrorism. Wring hands about the economy while supporting policies that undermine it.

    The disconnect between emotional and intellectual narratives is what makes cognitive dissonance between sucking the Medicare teat, and passively decimating the poor and the next generations, an attitude presenting zero conflict.

    The left doesn’t need the right’s support for policy — they have no awareness of policy. Leftists need to WIN, and it doesn’t matter the least bit how. If dominance can be asserted loudly enough, the right will fall in line.

    I don’t support the left of ’60s decadence and remote causes. Mine is the left of the Reign of Terror, at least philosophically. The only thing for neocon billionaires is sawing their heads off and parading them through Wall St.

  • 24. Mike C.  |  January 14th, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    If the “right wing” demographic can support subsidies like Medicare, or for “farmers,” their approval can easily be stretched to include unemployment benefits, and nationalized healthcare — not to provide the (often working) poor with luxury, but to keep people solvent enough to get back on their feet in the worst economy since the Great Depression. Who’s going to hire a homeless person who can’t even take a shower or get the piss stink out of their clothes?

    We have to resign ourselves to the reality that no matter what the “right wing” supports, they’ll always do so for the WRONG reasons. To appeal to the mob mentality, one must present a mob.

    It behooves the left to abandon its pretense of shallow ’60s-style “individuality” long enough to reestablish an identity.

  • 25. littleSteve  |  January 14th, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    “He used this opportunity to talk about how much he loves Sig Sauers. This is a clear sign that he’s not an expert by any measure; he’s actually an ignorant redneck crackpot.”

    Hey now. I carry a P229 and I consider myself a well versed redneck crackpot. Like johnny texass redneck said, it’s all about the feel. One man’s clunky is anothers perfection.

    As for the Glock, it a relatively inexpensive, well made, easy to maintain and use and ubiquitous throughout pop culture. Perfect for the aspiring street thug and roid raged boy in blue alike.

  • 26. aleke  |  January 14th, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    Liberals are rightwingers: white guilt has more to do with an infantile approach to their own class-based, White nationalist racism, than an actual desire for real social justice.

    Liberal political parties all over the world are centre-right (in First World nations, which are aligned with the American empire), or far-right. America has two liberal parties: the Democratic party, and the more-reactionary Republican party. Both are right-wing, imperialist, and racist. America is a liberal empire, as was Britain (see: Late Victorian Holocausts, and the liberal language both empires deployed on the international stage in their heyday). The reactionaries call em like they see em, but of course they are also liberals in America (as one can clearly see by their Second Amendment fetishism, also in their economic opinions, etc).

    Do not associate Liberals with the Left. Not the peace and justice Left anyway. You can do whatever you want with your decadent, immoral lifestyle and mental illnesses, but those are Liberal illnesses, not Leftist ones.

    Glocks are gr8! Easily available, pretty reliable, as lars said not-easily traceable, not too expensive, etc. For an American-made gun, it’s very good, especially for a beginner. But gun fetishism is stupid, the only thing one should really worry about is reliability, maintenance, accuracy, and how well it’ll fit in your hand. Glock has most of those down, and getting in a damn fight about it is liberal masturbation ;D

  • 27. eurotrash  |  January 14th, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    Does that Gun Amendment allow for renting arms ? I mean, why pay $ 500 if you are only gonna use it once ? Rent’em out for $ 50 / week and everybody’s happy. Easy money to be made or what ?
    Please advise.

  • 28. Bert  |  January 14th, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    The comments here are way more useful than the article…

    Glocks are foisted on new shooters by lazy trainers, both at the PD and elsewhere.

    They’re designed go off whenever the trigger is pulled and there is a round chambered.

    The only safety training needed is to keep your damn fingers outside the trigger guard unless you’re about to shoot- And since folks who don’t practice meaningfully won’t remember that in a panic situation or when thoughtlessly handling them… “A plague of the kaboom descended on the land”

    1 In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, “Thou shalt not muck with my disciple John’s design for it is good and it workith. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.”

    2 “And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.”

    3 And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

    4 Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it. and didst try and fit more rounds of ammunition into the magazines than the holy number of seven, appointed for the .45.

    5 And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle. a

    6 And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

    7 Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

    8 And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.

    9 And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a “dingus” to make them appear safe.

    10 But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

    11 And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

    12 Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.

    13 And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation b by the followers of John.

    ——————————————————————————–

    a Several old manuscripts add the following text. “And they [also rendered as "these men"] didst chamber it for cartridges who’s calibers startith with numbers less than the Holy Number 4. And lo the Lord did cause great grief amongst these men when their enemies who were struck in battle with these lesser numbers didst not fall but did continue to cause great harm.”

  • 29. CensusLouie  |  January 14th, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    Ironically, the only reason I’d ever want a gun is to protect myself from 2nd Amendment fanatics.

  • 30. DarthFurious  |  January 14th, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    @Mike C.

    Here fucking here chief. Fuck the neotrotskyites and their bullshit “identity” politics.

  • 31. Sarah P  |  January 14th, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    This entire thread has made me, like, totally wet!

  • 32. RedBastardGod  |  January 14th, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    I want a ray gun so I can kill fat, ugly, conservative american pigs by the millions and then enslave their women.

  • 33. the dodd  |  January 15th, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    from a european point of view:

    you guys are all fucking gun nuts. and some of your folks call loughner “a weird loony shithead”…that’s so ironic. the moment you fired a weapon doesn’t mean that you’re a potential killer (cos that still depends on the reasonable personality), but it definitely will change you.

    i don’t see guns as the main problem of american society and shooting (that’s much deeper, see ames’ book), but still: get rid of the second amendment, this whole “it’s a cultural thing, dude, you wouldn’t understand it, we all need guns over here, it’s neccessary to protect yourself blabla” is crap, because that’s only part of the gun industry propaganda and the democrats and republicans are puppets of this industry (and not only this one..). (back in the 17th/18th century nobody could imagine that america would soon abolish black slavery, and yet the ‘naive dream’ became true…only now, in this day an age you got black and white working slaves without the rattling chains lol, at least that’s an achievement, so leave me my utopian dream about the prohibition of bearing arms in that country;-)). plus, in a heated society like yours, with dozens of people being pumped full of psych medicine drugs, it’s not the best thing to have a finger on a trigger, you know…

    oh, and by the way, death penalty in america should get abolished, too. it’s only part of barbarian countries.

    greetz from a european sissy without a gun.

  • 34. John P  |  January 15th, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    RedBastardGod, you ARE a GOD. I want to be just like you and Mike C.

    I agree, the very best thing that could happen for America would be for the billionaire Wall Street swine’s heads to be stuck on pikes for the crows and vultures and for their fat bloated swine bodies to be burned and their ashes used for fertilizer.

  • 35. Mike C.  |  January 15th, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    @dodd

    You’re right to qualify your remarks geographically.

    I recall the UK’s anti-knife campaign, which was, well, Pythonesque.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8161880.stm

    Like Europe, the US is a big and varied place; we don’t all have the same reasons for owning guns. I shoot recreationally, and see no threat to the second amendment. Obama is a pussy, and won’t ruffle anybody’s feathers.

    A repeal would be as successful as prohibition was; and as the “drug war” continues to be. I think self-defense is a legitimate concern. In the UK, when there was an arms race between unarmed police and armed criminals, cops lost. For a repeal to work, it has to be all-encompassing and immediate. That’s not practical here. The bottom line is it just ain’t gonna happen.

    A lot of us like guns, but none of us pose a credible threat against government corruption (the odd assassination aside). The armed civilian today can’t fulfill the original purpose of their constitutional rights. The libertarians, anarchists, and republican troglodytes didn’t get the memo.

    Aside from my enjoyment of firing ranges, etc., I also think there’s a psychological component important to the morale of a resolute left. Carrying guns and knowing how to use them differentiates and severs us from the ineffectualness of the passive, self-important left of the pampered baby boomers. It also defies and violates the stereotypes foisted on us by a right wing that takes any confirmation of their prejudices as reason not to listen.

    @aleke
    I’ll have to think about that “liberal” versus “leftist” thing. Sometimes I let my writerly love of synonyms get the better of me, and I use words interchangeably.

  • 36. Fissile  |  January 15th, 2011 at 8:26 pm

    @ Mike C. #35

    The reason why guns have been tightly regulated in the UK since the 1920′s has nothing to do with crime. UK crime levels during that period were very low. The motivation for strict gun control was fear of a Bolshevik style revolution.

    The above explains the difference between American and European government attitudes about gun control. For Europeans guns are a means to a political end. European governments are afraid that an armed populace could organize and undertake an armed revolutionary campaign against those in power.

    Americans, on the other hand, have been brainwashed by the myth of individualism — the American frontiersman/cowboy crap. In America, guns divide and isolate people. There are enough privately held full/semi auto military weapons in the US to equip an entire army, and maybe two. Since 1945, the American citizenry has been subjected to outrages and molestations that would have made the most pitiful and beaten down third world peasant rise up in murderous fury. And America’s armed citizens have done what with all those shiny, powerful guns? In reality, the average American gun owner is nothing but a Fudd (as in Elmer Fudd). Elmer Fudd’s big scary shotgun fools no one save for Elmer. As long as the current state of affairs continues, the American power structure will make no attempts at disarming the Tea-Tard types.

  • 37. calripson  |  January 16th, 2011 at 8:51 am

    All you Euro fags miss the whole point of American gun culture and the current political use of the Second Amendment. Of course it is absurd to argue that the possesion of civilian firearms provides a check to the power of government..if that is the intent, legalize antitank weapons, MANPADS, and explosives..then you might have a fighting chance against a modern military. The point of American gun culture is to provide a psychological outlet to Middle America, to prove that Americans are “free”. The Middle American serf may have no economic future, may soon be a ethnic minority in his own country, but as long as he owns that gun he is Free ! Free I tell you !

  • 38. zot23  |  January 16th, 2011 at 9:15 am

    I prefer shotguns.

  • 39. big gun=small dick  |  January 16th, 2011 at 10:54 am

    the rather cavalier use of the term “pussy” paints the user as an ignorant, unaware neandertal, happily guzzling the rightwing koolaid even as the masters make off with their bank accounts, 401Ks and rights.

    the lumping together of liberals as “passive, self-important left of the pampered baby-boomers” is also cheap, inaccurate and meaningless.

    No wonder you need to own guns. Impotent cowards, the bunch of you.

  • 40. luther blissett  |  January 16th, 2011 at 12:14 pm

    “Glocks aren’t nearly as common among criminals as rap lyrics make them out to be.”

    “Glock” rhymes with more shit than “Walther”.

  • 41. ariot  |  January 16th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    yup. it’s a good thing the u.s. has such well armed citizens to keep the upper classes of society from taking over as nobility, doing whatever the fuck they want, and generally shitting on the cheer leading 98% percent of the country who has to be a slave to nearly biblical debt.

    yup. a good thing.

  • 42. Marquelot  |  January 16th, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    That picture makes me think of Dan Burton shooting at watermelons to prove Hillary Clinton killed Vince Foster (on the public teat, of course) and co-incidentally proving Hoosiers are born brain-dead.

  • 43. Zhu Bajie  |  January 16th, 2011 at 7:48 pm

    “I agree, the very best thing that could happen for America would be for the billionaire Wall Street swine’s heads to be stuck on pikes for the crows and vultures and for their fat bloated swine bodies to be burned and their ashes used for fertilizer.”

    It ain’t gonna happen. While you subgeniuses play with your detachable pen*ses, people like the Kock bros. and Rod Parsley are taking over your bodies and souls. Learn to raise your own onions and potatoes and to get along with your neighbors.

  • 44. Zhu Bajie  |  January 16th, 2011 at 7:55 pm

    The average U S gun-nut is too fat to fight for long!

  • 45. Cian  |  January 17th, 2011 at 1:05 am

    I think self-defense is a legitimate concern. In the UK, when there was an arms race between unarmed police and armed criminals, cops lost.

    Not sure where you got that from, but its not true.

    The armed police here mostly use Heckler & Koch MP5SFA3s. They also have automatics and sniper rifles (Heckler and Koch again).

    Street gangs typically have hand guns that have been converted from replicas in somebody’s garage. Quite often they will explode in the firer’s hand, and they’re never accurate. They’re also not that easy to acquire and relatively expensive (to hire, or rent), despite the hype you get from some quarters. Bank robbers mostly use replicas, rather than real guns.

    More professional criminals tend to have Yugoslav surplus weapons, or shotguns of some kind.

    Gun crime is extremely rare in the UK, compared to the US. It usually makes the national news when it involves shooting of some kind.

  • 46. Mike C.  |  January 17th, 2011 at 10:41 am

    @Fissile

    I didn’t know that about the UK. It didn’t occur to me, since we share a border with Canada and Mexico; and, haven’t experienced occupations.

    I have to disagree about gun ownership in the US. The brainwashing you speak of is limited to libertarians and hicks; at least that particular brainwashing. Though I’ll admit it’s a small sample, many of my friends (and many other acquaintances) own guns, and none of them display any delusions about armed militias. I believe I covered that.

    The frontiersman attitude is applicable to, at best, half the country (i.e. the “red states”), so your generalization selectively characterizes America by a certain demographic. Those people consider themselves “real Americans” — so do white supremacists, and any other ignorant, provincial types. This isn’t to suggest the majority of “blue staters” own guns, just that they’re not infected with the cowboy disease.

    The outrages you mention are legitimate, and I’m disappointed in my countrymen, but you have to realize the economic boom following the war provided a tangible convenience that made it easy to ignore atrocities. The situation since that era hasn’t been conducive to mass political unrest (the Vietnam/Civil Rights era kids were dilettantes), since calling America a great country was, for a time, plausible. The rise of credit in the middle of the last century maintained the illusion of this prosperity even as it was ebbed away, and two income families and debt rose in answer to the gradual wealth transfers.

    The disarmament of Americans was rebutted already by me, so I don’t know what you’re replying to there.

  • 47. Mike C.  |  January 17th, 2011 at 10:58 am

    @big gun=small dick

    “the rather cavalier use of the term “pussy” paints the user as an ignorant, unaware neandertal, happily guzzling the rightwing koolaid even as the masters make off with their bank accounts, 401Ks and rights.”

    What?

    “the lumping together of liberals as “passive, self-important left of the pampered baby-boomers” is also cheap, inaccurate and meaningless.”

    America today is itself an indictment of its liberals’ efficacy as a political force. Even large scale conventional protests are easily ignored by a corporate media, and no one has done anything to change that. There are no coherent plans; just ineffectual capering, and smug posturing.

    Your ridicule is of no consequence, but I’ll readily admit (and have already admitted) I don’t know what to do about our situation. But I do think it’s necessary to break stereotypes and reorganize a coherent leftist movement. I think the future of protest will rely on hackers; decentralized, anonymous protests and vandalism; and sympathetic sabotage that doesn’t implicate a company’s own workforce. Basically, whatever will sufficiently damage multinationals — assuming they haven’t established enough of a foreign toe-hold already to starve us out. In that case, we could only hope for the assistance of other countries hostile to their own austerity measures. The mainstream liberals of today have had their chance and fucked it up. The liberals of the ’60s were asleep while the Friedmanites destroyed the country; and now they whine about the country they’ve created, while leaving us their tax burden and deficit. I suppose the joke’s on them in terms of retirement.

    You’re guilty of what you’ve accused me of: issuing statements without explanation.

  • 48. Mike C.  |  January 17th, 2011 at 11:02 am

    @Cian

    I meant prior to the ’50s.

  • 49. Fissile  |  January 17th, 2011 at 11:04 am

    @calripson #37. Not only would you need proper military gear to successfully fight a professional army/police force, you would also need trained fighters, a secure area from which to operater, a reliable source of food and medical care, the support of a large percentage of the population, and aid from an outside power. Successful revolutions are a bit more tricky to pull off than most people realize.

    @big gun=small dick #39, Having been raised in a hunting family…we would shoot and eat various critters as a way of keeping the grocery bill down…I’ve been to a lot of shooting ranges and gun shows. From my casual observations, big guns usually equal small brains.

    Zhu Bajie #44 You ain’t kidding. I know the following picture is a joke, but it’s not uncommon to see guys like this at shooting ranges.

    http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6161/36d814fa3te.jpg

  • 50. Mike C.  |  January 17th, 2011 at 11:11 am

    To folks bitching about Americans’ delusion of an armed revolution, I’ve already established that the constitutional purpose of gun ownership can’t be fulfilled; and I don’t see anyone arguing that it can be. At most, we can expect random domestic terrorism.

    If you want to vent about militias and survivalists, I suggest visiting a right wing site.

  • 51. Mike C.  |  January 17th, 2011 at 11:18 am

    @Cian

    Also note that the “legitimate concern” I mentioned was directed toward the US, not the UK. Given its violent history, and the existing prevalence of guns, disarming the mainstream populace wouldn’t help matters with regard to criminals.

    What I mean is, violence in the US would continue; but I think they’re linked to the marginalization and financial oppression of many who feel powerless and persecuted by society. They have a point; education, welfare, unemployment, and other social programs have been gutted. Prosperity would reduce violence more than altering the availability of a convenient means for violence.

  • 52. *duh*  |  January 17th, 2011 at 7:29 pm

    GUN NOTES: Glocks are made in Austria, NOT the USA. Also, CZ75/CZ85 for the win (although a full auto Stetchkin or .380 Skorpion would be REAL nice, too)

    1. Euro gun whiners: shut up! you bitches can’t even have small blade knives or non-shatter resistant pint glasses where you come from, ha ha ha ha ha!!! Your civilian gun-free countries are drifting to the far-right just like everywhere else in the world. What are YOU going to do when it gets bad enough to actually revolt against your puppet masters?

    2. As long as the rich are stomping down the working poor with the heel of their jack boots and not even throwing the poor rabble crumbs like some basic health care (especially mental health treatment) there will be gun rampages in this country. Unfortunately, it will be disorganized and just one nutter at a time picking senseless and shameful targets.

    3. The ball-less “left”* will continue to present an aura of out of touch effete elitism while continuing to bend over to endless conciliation with their reich wing dom masters and shill for ANY corporate donor that has the ca$h. Thus, there is only ONE true political party in the US, $$$$$$$$$

    (* called such in the US but considered center right, everywhere else)

    6. ? ? ?

    7. PROFIT! (if you are the rich power elite)

    Good Times!

  • 53. Leif Oldhart  |  January 18th, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    Glock. A decent firearm, with name recognition and recommended by the late Don Smith, for what it’s worth. Not a work of art. Not the best, but certainly not the worst. The “Volksvagon” of handguns, if you will. But for the going postal sort, it’s probably all about name recognition. Q-tip. Kleenex. Xerox. Glock.

    As for Americano gun aficionados, sadly, too many love to pretend they are free. And brave! Many wouldn’t know real freedom if it came up and gnawed on their great toe. Few would desire to actually live free if given the chance. Few are brave enough to speak their true minds, to support what they know is right, or to publically scorn what they know is wrong (unless it’s popular, of course). So what good does the second amendment do them? Gun haters are only a tad worse, as both sides deny reality in their own way. For such people, what is the point of living, besides moving roughage through the bowel, etc?

  • 54. my talkative ringpiece  |  January 19th, 2011 at 1:00 am

    I’ll agree, “Grocks” can’t totally suck, they do indeed seem to be the Toyota of the gun world. A Sig in .40 is awfully nice, though, so’s the ol’ M1911 “farty-five”. I also like the Walther PPK, the gun you have with you is better than the one you leave at home…

    I’m all for buying guns. Buy yourself another gun, everyone! Knee-deep in the things? Then buy one or a few for friends! Help out at a range! Educate kids! Educate adults (if it’s possible!) Right now in the news, I’m hearing a kid took a gun to school in his backpack, set the backpack down with a thud, and the damn gun went off, hitting 2 other kids. Fucking shameful. If that kid were more educated about gun handling that accident would not have happened. I blame the parents. Should have taken the kid out to the range and taught him gun handling. As far as that goes, WHY did the kid feel he had to take a gun to school? We’ve got a lot of little Columbines simmering away and it’s not the fault of guns.

    Ames I’ll go shooting with you any time.

  • 55. FOARP  |  January 19th, 2011 at 9:54 am

    “Why not just do away with the Second Amendment altogether?”

    Good idea.

  • 56. Derp  |  January 19th, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    “the only good killers are american and europeans, them chinks n’ niggers n’ Ay-rabs can’t shoot fer’ sheet PRAISE JESUS”.

    FUCKZ YEAH MAH NIGGA! DERP DERP!

  • 57. Brad  |  January 20th, 2011 at 3:44 am

    ‘The only professional killers left in the world are American or European Special Forces.’

    The Australian SAS would have something to say about that.

  • 58. CensusLouie  |  January 21st, 2011 at 9:40 pm

    One gun question I’ve always wondered:

    Why would you need anything more than a double barrel shotgun or revolver for home defense?

    Is an entire chapter of Crips going to rob your house? Are you going to fend off the entire ATF with your AR-15? The Illuminati One World Government? Stocking up for the zombie apocalypse?

    What possible use does more firepower than that serve other than allow lone nuts to rack up a higher rampage body count?

  • 59. the dodd  |  January 22nd, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    @*duh*:

    y’all owning a gun at the moment anyway. so why don’t you use it against the very people that turn your life into hell? (politics, wall street etc.)

    you wanna know why? because y’all with a gun are only fucking big mouths. you said you’re free and you would defend yourself against the government or any linked organisation.

    a whole nation is armed already and america is goin’ down in every aspect – but where’s the revolution?

    before you can start any kind of revolution or rebellion, you’re going to need any form of media. but the current media in america is full of cock- and clitsuckers. they wouldn’t even report about large protests and such things.

    “There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party…and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt—until recently… and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties.” (gore vidal)

  • 60. Gerias III  |  January 23rd, 2011 at 10:11 am

    “Glocks = The Kalashnikov of the US.”

    Please embark on a journey to discover why you are wrong.

  • 61. Fissile  |  January 23rd, 2011 at 12:14 pm

    @Gerias III #60, Ooh,ooh! I know the answer! See, like I own a Glock, and I also graduated from the 8th grade, and like on the Glock it says “Made in Austria”. I also heard that this Austria place had some critters called “Kangaroos”, and they was good eatin. Well, anyway, I was walking home yesterday because my Camaro threw a rod, and it was like real cold, and then I seen a place called a lieberry, and I went in to get warm. Don’t you know that this lieberry place has lots of books, and you could look at them for free! So I was looking at this book called “Atlas”, and this book has lots of pictures of places that ain’t America. One of these places that ain’t America was called “Yourope”. And in the middle of this place was this kangaroo-land called “Austria”. So I asked the lieberry lady, and she said it was true, Kangaroos don’t come from America, and if Glocks come from the same place as the kangaroos, Glocks can’t be American AK-47′s because AK-47′s come from Irania.

  • 62. adolph hitler  |  January 24th, 2011 at 8:44 am

    @58….ask david koresh or randy weaver, they can tell you why.

  • 63. WTF  |  January 24th, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    You call this an article?

  • 64. Larry Campbell  |  January 25th, 2011 at 9:33 pm

    These guns (Glocks) are incredibly reliable. They offer reliability, high-capacity, light weight, affordability, user friendly. There are many stories of Glocks that literally have hundreds of thousands of rounds through them and they continue to not only function, but they continue to be exceptionally accurate. The Glock pretty much has it all and on top of all of that it is a very inexpensive pistol. Glock has more than 60% of all the U.S. Law Enforcement market and many countries issue it as their standard sidearm. It may not look as pretty as a 1911, but it will feed ammo that would make a 1911 malfunction. They come in 9 mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10 mm, .45 GAP and .45 ACP. The Glock is the standard sidearm of NATO as well as numerous federal agencies. To the poster who thinks that americans need to be disarmed…I ‘ll say this, you can have my guns all right, but I’ll give you the ammo first. It is said that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat those same mistakes. When was was evident in Great Britain, that country literally begged american gun owners. GB asked americans to loan them their guns with a promise that they would return them after the war. Try googling the Lend/Lease Act.

  • 65. mgerot  |  January 28th, 2011 at 10:03 am

    I DO NOT UNDERSTAND ALL THE GLOCK BASHING AS
    I OWN SEVERAL GLOCK AND 1911S
    I SHOOT IPSC USPSA @ STEEL MATCHES WITH EACH
    MY SCORES ARE SO CLOSE THERE IS NO WINNER
    MAIN THING IS WHATEVER GUN YA CHOOSE IS
    TRAIN TRAIN @ TRAIN AND KEEP YOUR FINGER
    OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE
    ENOUGH SAID YOU BRAIN IS THE BEST SAFETY IF
    YA USE IT IF NOT DONT TOUCH ANY GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • 66. par4  |  January 30th, 2011 at 4:04 am

    Don’t fall for the corporate media’s caricature of ‘liberal’. The terms, conservative,liberal and centrist, describing our narrow political spectrum have been made useless except to create a knee-jerk reaction.

  • 67. Whatever  |  February 7th, 2011 at 3:35 am

    >>The only professional killers left in the world are American or European Special Forces.

    He just had to throw some american brainwashing patriotism in, didn’t he.

  • 68. Barbara Rowen  |  February 10th, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    I’m an idiot. Saw you bashing of Reagan and got very upset because I blame all of my problems on unions and the government I can’t take responsibility for my own actions plus I’m an Ayn Rand baloneyhead who thinks it’s smart to be a selfish bimbo. Gosh I hate unions. Oo, grrr, gosh they make me so angry!

  • 69. Keith  |  February 10th, 2011 at 10:45 pm

    I own a Glock 30 and love it. It truly is a pocket pistol. I initially did not like Glocks, the look is very sterile, so is the feel, but… the quality is excellent, highly reliable (this could vary on caliber) The Glock was designed for 9mm, but the gun manufacturers are catering to 31 flavors concept. I live in CA, so I have parameters. Yes, I do feel they’re getting a little out of control with firearm policy here, I can’t buy ammo online now, and that sucks! The Glock 30 -Ten rounds, compact, tac rail, .45ACP, extremely reliable and easy to break down, and aggressively priced! If I had more options then: Sig Sauer P226 Tactical Op (.357SIG) & LWRC PSD 6.8 SPC

  • 70. Keith  |  February 10th, 2011 at 10:53 pm

    Oh btw, I’m a liberal, live in San Francisco, grew up in NYC, I’m as liberal as they come, and yes I love my guns! I meant to say pocket rocket, not pocket pistol above -oops!
    Glocks Rule!

  • 71. Aamir  |  April 4th, 2011 at 11:16 am

    welll i realy like dhe model…its intrusting

  • 72. richard pajarillo  |  August 15th, 2011 at 11:42 pm

    i never fired a gunbut now i wanted to have one for security reasons. what would you recommend a glock19 or sig?

  • 73. TT  |  November 16th, 2011 at 10:35 am

    Look, I think Glock makes a fine gun. I also think that H&K, Beretta, Smith, and a few others also make fine guns.

    Many glock lovers love ONLY glock and repeatedly tell you that glock is miles and miles beyond all other guns, and that all other manufactures should just stop making their guns and leave the world for Glock. That is what some specific gun enthusiasts find it annoying and made a Glock hatred side. That is also why you wont find Sigs Beretta H&K hatred sides that much.

  • 74. Forever Independent  |  December 23rd, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    Mike C is the perfect example of the dangerous underbelly of neo-liberalism. Self-righteously claiming higher ground, liberation and higher intelligence out of one side of his mouth while hypocritically negatively stereotyping those who don’t subscribe to his cause.

    “I am smarter, I am right, if you don’t agree you are lowlife riff raff, so I will tell you what you should think and make your world better for your own good because you obviously can’t take care of yourself.”

    It’s closely related to the type of deluded egomania that we often see in totalitarian leftist dictatorships.

    Liberal used to connote tolerance and liberty. Now it’s just self-righteous. Sad.

  • 75. tom  |  September 14th, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    We should be leaders of democracy, not the damn followers of socialism . When they bowed before their kings, we voted for our leaders. We were the first to developed a democracy that worked with checks and balances. Now the liberals want us to follow Europe’s example. Social Obama Care. Our forefathers would be ashamed of us.

  • 76. Kevin  |  November 19th, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    I have never read so much misinformation/ignorant opinions in one article. The first individual said that the glock had a hammer for christs sake. Interview some people who actually know what they are talking about. 60% of our nations police officers carry Glock, and the Glock 19 is the most popular pistol in the WORLD.

  • 77. Kevin  |  November 19th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    As a so-called gun enthusiast, how do you misspell Burata? And as a writer/editor, how do you overlook something like that? Don’t quit your day job.

  • 78. Jim  |  July 18th, 2013 at 5:56 pm

    Glocks are not the gang banger’s choice, around my neck of the woods they favor the Taurus line.


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